Urgent state vs. private

[finnmum]

Urgent advice needed please.. I'm writing on behalf of friend of mine, she has a very bright YR2 boy currently in independent Montessori school in London. The family is moving forward and considering two options: a private, academically excellent boy's school(where he got accepted with top results) or a friendly, outstanding state school.

The family could afford the private school but still would like to save the money for the future education for the boy and choose the state option. However, the are very worried about 11+.

What would you do, ladies?

my dd's have had private since reception (1 dd did 1 year at local primary)as have been living overseas until very recently, if you have an outstanding local school an option would be too go there until age 11 then transfer to private secondary, most private secondary do an examination and are after the the cleverest not just those who can pay as dd school had 70 places and 150 entrants.
I would recommend if this is the root she will take to do a year of private tutoring before exam covering maths, English, no verbal & verbal reasoning, it pays off and they do past papers so exam no a shock, another option to swap at year 5 so to make friends and at that point should be able to have guaranteed place(they do this for academic standards).
My dd'd love their new school and would view at least 3 if possible before deciding as ended up choosing a very academic school for them both after concerns it was right for one and not the other, both doing so well, youngest had issues as had been falling behind in past school, she joined it at year 6 start, school could not have been more supportive, results have been amazing.
We only had 6 months before exam and I will be honest and say she worked her socks off, it was a huge ask, but a joint decision and best one we have made.
Let me know if you have any other questions or inbox me.

The family would move the child to the same state school where I transferred DD in year just two weeks ago (they are building a new class). I got very kind advice from you guys when I asked about DD's transfer from private to state, she loves her new school! She is of average ability but still 1.5 years ahead of her class mates in English and Maths (obviously worrying..) The difference between DD and my friend's son is that DD is very obedient and will do the extra work in the corner of the class they hopefully give her to challenge her. My friend's son on the other hand is kind but strong minded and thinks writing stories is boring. When he does write it's amazing, but the family is worried he would need an academic environment to push him..

It really depends on the school and the child. My DCs school really stretches kids, so much so that a local private selective prefers it to their attached prep, but not all schools are the same.
Also two weeks isn't long enough for you to really know the school yet.

Mummytime, that's exactly why I'm asking here for my friend as I can't say anything about the school yet:)

I would say if you have any worries talk to the(state) school to see if they have a talented & gifted programme, sorry it might not be the name of it here.
As this would be a huge bonus if they did, my eldest was on it, its also down to school and individual teacher as we have had some fabulous inspirational ones and the odd poor one with no enthusiasm which is very frustrating.

Thanks mummytime and coansha. Yes, the school has a gifted and talented programme, they put DD there on her first week (which would suggest they assess children's needs fast) The problem is that I have no idea what being in this program means in practice, she still has not much homework..

I would be asking what the homework plan is for her class and compare as my youngest would say they didnt have any etc and consequently fell behind, school here has a homework diary so know exactly what she needs and its working very well.

My DCs school doesn't do homework, so I would also check. It might mean you have lots of free time for her to follow her own interests.

Also how do you know she is average? How do you know she is 1.5 years ahead, it sounds a bit soon for 2 weeks.

Your friend however has to make her own decision, based on her values and her knowledge of her son. If I was her I would go into the school and ask all the questions she has.

Mummytime, admittedly I'm not good at this as I wasn't educated in this country:) However, DD has been in an independent school for the past 5 years and I know most of her classmates so can safely say she was quite good but not outstanding. As soon as she transferred it was clear that what most of the class did in English and Maths was something DD had learnt 1.5 years ago.

Oh, from a curriculum repeating pov. A year and a half isn't that far ahead tbh, but if she's already completed the subject matter and understood it (and consolidation not required) then it makes sense to give her something else.

All kids are different.

Tbh I would probably go for the private option as he obviously academically further ahead in a more traditionally 'gifted' sense than your daughter, but I can see they might be concerned about the future. Any chance of a bursary for him if he was the highest performer on entry tests?

The thing with the national curriculum is that it does repeat quite a lot. Also they would probably not stretch a pupil quite as much during the first few weeks as she would still be settling in. However you may well find in a few weeks on a new topic she struggles a bit. Also English isn't just something you learn and don't need to go over. For example for my DC they write a letter of complaint in year 3 (from one of the animals on Noah's ark). In year 8 they might write another one, complaining about the treatment of animals in war. The sophistication needed in year 8 would be expected to be rather more than in year 3.
A friend studied how to teach "Little Red Riding Hood" at University, and you could teach it for any age between Nursery and Sixth Form or beyond.
It could also be that this school suits your DD better than her old one, which is why she is achieving so well.

Oh I love the letters of complaint example!

It's just that at this early state when a child writes stories in neat joined up writing with a speed of light and others are learning to write letters the gap is huge. But like I said DD absolutely loves the school and I'm sure that an outstanding school will challenge her as well.

Our financial situation was such that we put DCs into a state primary and saved the money for private secondary schools.

Although DS is in the secondary school, he/we have a lot of contact with the prep school and it is a whole diferent world from DS's state primary. So if money wasn't an issue, which it doesn't appear to be in your friend's case, then I would go private all the way.

"the are very worried about 11+"

The highly academic state secondary schools are very difficult to get into but when it comes to private schools the money factor filters out some of the kids so competition is less fierce. If the DC is quite bright then going the state primary > 11+ > selective private school route is a workable option

I honestly never get this 'private schools work 1-2 years ahead thing'. Within any class in primary school there's at least 3 years difference between top and bottom (ie if top ones are working a year ahead and lower ones a year behind). We went on an open day to a v academically selective secondary and they said that the success rates at 11 for applicants from state schools were identical to those of applicants from private schools, so I'm not sure how it could be the case that they're working to such different rates.
A good primary will set work that can be interpreted and completed in various different levels. Tolstoy wrote 'stories', no doubt in joined-up writing, it doesn't mean he would have been in y2 with your daughter...

I didn't quite get the Tolstoy example:) Obviously now in my position I'm happy to read these comments about good state schools being able to deliver the same than private. Personally here in London I still haven't met a very advanced child going through state all the way until 11+ and standing in the same line with the children from private route and that's why I'm asking. Does the area where you live play any part in this? I know a very bright little girl -DD's same age friend- who has gone state route for the past 5 years in an 'outstanding' school in South London -academically now she is way behind DD.

Might you, I am totally unbiased with this state/private issue, at home in Finland everyone goes state and the country ranks high(est) in international stats in education.

We live in v mixed area of London and all the children (3 or 4 a year) who apply to selective private schools at 11 seem to get in to wherever they want. Almost none leave at 7. Of course v advanced children go the whole way, especially since many of these very advanced children wouldn't be able to afford private anyway. And many very advanced children stay in state until 18...
I don't want to start off on some state v private thing as I'm on the fence anyway, but i really wouldn't assume that nobody clever goes to their local school.
Tolstoy was an exaggeration obv! But was to illustrate point that it's not the actual work that is set but how it is carried out that matters. How can you tell that DD's friend is way behind your daughter? Do you test them? How do you know she's not ahead in other ways that aren't as easily measurable. Are you judging it on her handwriting (which isn't ultimately a reflection of intelligence as any GP will demonstrate)?

I am just outside London and my DCs have or are in a state primary school which has a highly selective private grammar nearby. The head (and previous two heads) of this grammar have stated that they prefer children from my DCs primary over boys from their own linked prep, because they are original thinkers. Actually I would be sick if I was in the position that friends of mine are in, having spent a lot of money sending their sons to the attached Prep and now having to send the some distance to other secondary boy's schools.
I have also spoken to a head of another private secondary, who said that children for prep schools are often ahead inMaths and English (and passing entrance exams) but often didn't have the breadth of learning of those from state schools.
Of course it is only a small subset of state school pupils whose parents will even consider entering their children for the private selective school exams.

"..but i really wouldn't assume that nobody clever goes to their local school."

Pollyparanoia, sorry it's exactly the opposite I was asking about, I know clever children go to local schools, but do high achievers come out? Apparently so, that's great news!

Pollyparanoia, no I don't test them :D But have known this child very well since she was a baby, was impressed how clever she was (e.g fluent in both her languages before two years old when DD didn't say a word at that time). Obviously children develop at different speeds but still.. today when these two children do homework together or write letters to Santa DD uses much more complex words and sentence structures. For spelling test the friend's daughter's Y2 class have: stopped, tapped, married.. DD's class same week: irresponsible, illegible..

Sorry but at my DDs school I ignore the class spelling list, as they are never anything like the words she is working on. The differentiation means she is on much more complex words. To balance when my DS who is dyslexic was there, I ignored them as they were too complex for him (who cares about adding the suffix ally or ly when you can't spell the source word).

is the state school a feeder for the private school or not? You need the stats on how many kids go on to be succesful at the 11+ from that school. It is a risk either way and if they can afford it I would say private every time.

Great advice, mummytime, I'll do the same.

The state school with a fully inclusive intake (including lots of SEN) and being mixed sends 7 boys to the Grammar per year, that is nearly 10%. Which isn't many, but then 50% are girls (and a number go to private girls schools), others don't apply for any private, and some go to other private. However the attached Prep sends only 17 to 20 ish, and the Prep school is all boys and selective. It does however recommend alternative schools for its boys.

However OP this is partly why I would be wary of recommending either school to your friends. It is very hard to predict which school will do best, parents all would like a crystal ball, but unfortunately none of us can really know which school would be best (or even if a school was the best with hind sight). You just have to make the best decision you can at the time.

Meh.

This remind me of when my friends grandmother collared me on a visit to their house. She sat me down at their kitchen table to do a page of sums to check if they were getting 'value for money' with my friends private education.

I said "ooh - these look terribly hard - not sure I could do more than one or two of them". Everyone was happy. My friend's folks were happy with their advanced child's advanced schooling, and I was happy to be left the hell alone.

It's, of course, by the by that I went on to do maths at Cambridge - while my friend did something entirely different ( to her Grandmothers vocal disappointment) in Bristol.