Ability groups in reception and why would a teacher 'lie'?

[whysogrumpy]

How much of an indication of future academic success are these? I hear from dd that she is in group 3 - I think for both phonics and maths, though she's not completely clear that she's in the same for both. I didn't think about it too much when she first said it and didn't even mention it at a recent parents' evening but then a friend with a ds in the same class mentioned (she REALLY wasn't bragging) that the teacher had told her that her son is in the top groups - leaving dd in the third 'set'. I must admit, this worries me a little.

Anyway, dh is a sahd (he thinks I'm being ridiculous btw) but he agreed to speak to the teacher and she told him that the groups were not set by ability - the complete opposite of what my friend said. This friend is someone I have known a long time and she honestly wasn't bragging and I cannot begin to imagine she would lie so I don't understand why the teacher is telling us both different things.

I have always been told dd is 'bright' (whatever that means) by family and friends (didn't go to pre-school) she spoke early, loves being read to and is generally articulate and interested in everything. I'm afraid I'm about to make myself sound ridiculous but we live in a deprived area and the school OFSTED states that many of its pupils are below expectations when they come in at reception. Now I can't help thinking that if my dd is in a third group in such a school she must have problems of some sort - though I know in my head she doesn't.

She had no interest in letters before school but now knows all letters of both cases, all the sounds they've done so far (don't know what pahse they are on) and is on level 2 books, though does very well with some level 3 charity shop ones we've got too. She is obsessed with Ancient Egypt, among other thinga and can tell you all sorts of stuff about it but she hates writing and just doesn't want to put pen to paper - I think she struggles with the physical act of it and worries about spelings and won't do it unless she thinks it'll be perfect.

Overall, I am quite worried that she is behind her peers (many of whom have had a disadvantaged start in life) and that she is considerably quieter at school than she is at home and her ability is not showing.

Her teacher says she's doing 'fine' but always sounds so vague, dh thinks I'm being ridiculous and would probably disown me if he read this.

Any words of wisdom?

Even if they are streamed in the way you think they have been (your friend got the wrong end of the stick perhaps?) they are very fluid in Yr R because they have to be. Children change so quickly and those that start out knowing a lot may have lost their advantage to those who started school knowing very little but have made a lot of progress by the end of the year.

Your DD sounds a bit like my DS1 who loved books and being read too but hated writing and found it physically very difficult. He was bottom of the class at the end of Yr R (didn't meet his literacy targets) and by the end of Yr 1 was near the top of it (well exceeded them). When they are that young they are also at different levels of development in a way that matters less as they get older.

Basically how they do in Yr R doesn't necessarily indicate anything about how they will do academically in future years.If you are really worried ask the teacher to elabourate on 'fine' if her vagueness is making you feel uneasy. Ask for your DD's targets for the year and where she is against them but even then don't assume that all is lost. There is a long way to go and plenty of time for things to change.

Framey - I have to disagree with you. I wouldn't have wanted an underachieving DS1 to be in with the children who were reading well in Yr R. How soul destroying would that have been for him? He would have given up! Far better he was working with children at the same level as he was so that they could work at their pace and not somebody else's. The same goes for the brighter children - very demotivating for them not to be able to move on and learn anything new if they are being held back by the slower ones.

The trick to me is to make sure that the teacher can keep up with erratic spurts of development so that if a child in the bottom set does suddenly 'click' then they are moved up to work with children of their level. No child should be stuck in a set for the whole year if they have moved on or indeed if the rest of the group has moved on without them. Differentiation is a big part of teaching - being able to teach a class in such a way that everybody gets the appropriate level of support and streaming helps with this.

You've obviously got a bee buzzing loudly here.

From my experience of my dc, the groups are fluid, being reassessed at least half-termly, children can move depending on what their current achievements are. The top/middle/bottom groups varied as they went up the school, and yes, I knew children who were bottom at the beginning of year R, who were in the top in year 1/2/Juniors.

Being next to a child who writes 2 page stories quickly can be very demotivating for a child who's struggling to remember and form individual letters. The benefits are clear for the children too.

I remember talking to a bottom set in maths at secondary level. They hadn't been set for the first year, and they told me how relieved they were to be set, because they didn't see the top ones wizzing through the work with hardly an explanation whereas they were struggling to know where to begin.

OP, could it be that there's an extention group (ie the top group), possibly a "needing extra help" group, and the others are not done by ability as the middle may be much more similar. That would fit with both statements.

It must feel hard not to worry. They are very little in reception. The youngest children have only just had their fourth birthday.

I think its better to think of "attainment" groups rather than ablity groups. In a good school these groups are very fluid. A bright august born boy maybe academically behind a september born girl with average intelligence. However bright August born children will catch up and often over take average ablity children September by the end of keystage 2. Factors like glue ear can hold children back in the early years.

Ds was in set 4 out of 5 in year 1. He had severe glue ear and poor pen control. He was in the correct group for him. By year 3 he was in the top sets for everything. It helps that he can hear properly and has mastered joined up writing.

Reception is about play and there is very little formal learning.

Hi whysogrumpy:

First of all - people walk away from conversations with different interpretations/ understandings. The teacher may have simply said your DC is in Group 1 but the parent has taken away top group. There's nothing to say that top group isn't Group 6 (teachers do try hard to create names that aren't obviously linked in to ability). Regardless this is only Class R - and how they perform now doesn't set the tone for life. There's all sorts of examples of children improving, suddenly 'getting it' here on MN feeds.

SETS: sometimes they are on ability and sometimes they are a mix. Also don't be fooled by numbers or names. Sometimes the really aggressive name (DRAGONS for example) is the lower ability group, but the cool name is the help them all feel better about themselves. Possoms was top group that year. Now - the other mad thing is most sets are in groups of 5 or 6 children. Logically this is ridiculous. But reality is with 30 children, that works neatly into 6 groups of 5 or 5 groups of 6. Because a lot of work involves partners, often it is an even number. So although the numbers have a logic - it may be that there are 19 kids working at the same level - not 5. So groups may have very little difference between them.

I think you could do with a reality check. The campaign for real education publishes an 'ideal world' curriculum for each year/ age group. This is 'the gold standard' and doesn't mean your school is working to it - but it does give you a clear idea of what should ideally be covered and mastered in a given school year. Info here: www.cre.org.uk/primary_contents.html

Secondly - every child is individual in their learning and will progress at their own speed. Your job as Mum is really to support the school and your child in their learning and to help where you can if you can. So look into what your DD is doing. Is she starting to decode words, is she able to count by 2s or 5s? Look through what the campaign for real education curriculum describes and ask yourself if your DD is doing this kind of work and understands it.

Third: look into age appropriate work books. Most book shops sell them. Nothing too serious. Maybe a maths book over summer or a science book - if you're feeling this area is a bit weak. Just something to dip into for 10 minutes or so here and there to consolidate what she has learned and to move things forward.

Finally and most importantly try to avoid comparison. It will make you crazy. Everyone has things they are good or bad at - remember how crazy milestones made you when she was a baby. Oh dear she's not walking yet, oh dear she's not speaking yet, etc... Start where you are at and work on helping your daughter progress from there. After all that's all you can control really.

HTH

My DS's Reception class was put into ability groups within 3 weeks of starting school. Whilst we were told the ability group they were initially put into, this has changed regularly throughout the year. I think my DS has numeracy, sound, and reading groups - I am not sure how many there are. I don't know if he is still in the same banding as when he started. I am happy with his progress.

I do not think that ability groups in Reception have a bearing on later academic success.

If children start school if their 4th is before 31st August 2011. the youngest child would normally be 4 years and 6 months by now. I disagree with the statement that youngest children will have only just had their fourth birthday. I am a bit touchy regarding comments about age differences.

Thank you so much for all these helpful and thoughtful replies.

I suppose what I am struggling with is the relationship (is there one?) between the ability to read and write and the speed at which these happen, and general intelligence. I fully accept that dd would have to be in a low writing group as she barely writes - though when she does write it's pretty comparable to her peer's work that I have seen. The main difference is she won't even try. It was her birthday recently and the little boy whose mum I know wrote her a card. His 2 sentence long message was pretty neat and he had clearly done it independently as almost every word was spelt wrongly and, without the context of the birthday card, I would have struggled to decipher some of them. However, if dd made someone a card (she wouldn't!) the message would be spelt perfectly because she wouldn't write it unless she was certain she was right - even though I do encourage her that it doesn't matter. Therefore, even one sentence takes an age so she doesn't want to try.

I suppose her reading level isn't amazing either, though I can barely believe that in the area I live there are loads of children zooming ahead of her up the levels. anyway, I am less concerned about this as she is making progress.

I just worry about her being 'stuck' in bottom groups (though several of your replies suggest that this won't necessarily be the case) and can't understand how she can seem to brilliant at home and so, well, average at school. She seems so articulate, picks things up very quickly and makes connections between them (to give an example - out of any kind of context she asked if the word 'dynamite was Greek like 'dinosaur' as she had noticed that the 'dino' bit sounded the same and knew that it meant terrible in the case of dinosaur and thought it might refer to dynamite causing 'terrible' explosions - I thought that quite an impressive observation for a 4 yr old - though she is my PFB, so maybe I'm deluded. I have many other similar examples.)

It just seems to me that her ability to learn to read and write isn't matching what I have seen of her intellect and I want to know whether that really matters (maybe not, going by some of your replies) and what I can do to help.

Thanks pastSellByDate am off to look at that link now.

as others have said the grouping in YR is very fluid, and in my experience it is further up the school (although DS is only in Y2 so have not had that much experience )

Also in YR the time they spend in their groups is only a small part of their day.

My DS, who was a very quick reader, was a very reluctant writer in YR. He could write but just didn't want to. Now in Y2 he is in the top group for this and was one of the first in his class to be let loose on joined up writing. My DS was very much like your DD and wanted his writing/spelling to be correct and I felt that in YR he struggled with this as the emphasis was much more on independent learning, whereas he would much have preferred someone sitting down with him going through every word (obviously not possible in a class of 30!)

The YR teacher encouraged us to play word games with our DS. I spent many an evening devising crosswords for DS which he was able to work through pretty much by himself, very simple clues, very simple answers. All the answers could either be spelt easily using phonics he knew at the time or could be found in his picture dictionary. Also played a version of hangman (without the hanging bit ) and DS would again use his dictionary or magnetic words to help him spell the word correctly.

My Reception aged DS is quite a good reader but is a very reluctant writer.

His fine motor skills (such as writing) are below his peers imo. Rather than making clear, linear, progress my DS will plateau and then leap ahead.

Literacy is only one aspect of a broad curriculum and I am sure your DD is doing as expected. The teacher's opinion is that she is doing fine and that she isn't behind. I would raise your concerns with her. She may encourage your DD share her outside interests in show or tell.

I agree with the poster who said different people take away different things from what is meant.

When dd1 was setted in maths she came home and told me she was second set. I was a little surprised as in her class the previous year there'd been 3 of them working in the year above and she was one. I asked her if the other two were in the same set and she said they were, but it was definitely the second set.

Turned out that her bf had told her that she was in the top set because the teacher had said (roughly) "this is the best set to be in, we're going to have a lot of fun". Bf interpretted this in the words she told dd1 as "this has the people who are best at maths in".

Totally different in meaning, but not totally different to an 8yo listening, however I don't think any of the others had interpretted it that way either. Made for an awkward conversation later with bf parent who had only her dd's word for sets. I kept very quiet, as I generally reckon that sort of thing is best left to others to break

All I would say is that there was a sea change between the groups in the 1st and 2nd terms of y1. Thr first term the strongest group was predominantly girls; the next term it flipped to more accurately reflect the class gender mix as the boys lept forwards in terms of motor skills etc. There is still some bias towards older kids but that should flatten out soon.

I think YR is too young to stream.

Why would they not be grouped by ability? (for some things clearly not all)

Why is it so hard to imagine they told your friend her son was in the top group?

Maybe she isn't telling you because your child is not and she doesn't want it to kick off

The kids know........... They know exactly who knows what, who is cleverer the whole thing

Isn't teaching children to read late linked with greater academic achievement at an older age?

(I have no idea where I got that from though......)

I think it is funny that the maths sets are given shape names and all the children have worked out that the higher the number of sides the shape has the higher the set

OP, I really think it's too early to know what is going on here. Some kids start reception ahead and stay ahead. Others start further behind but catch up - or overtake - later. Some kids just aren't ready to learn certain things at 4 or 5 but that's not to say that they won't be quick learners when they are developmentally ready.

My dd is in year 2, and the children have been grouped by ability since reception. The teachers have always been quite open about the groupings. In dd's current class, there are four groups - the "top" table, two groups which are working at the same level in the middle, and one more group working towards easier targets.

There are eight children on the "top" table. Four of them have been there since reception, the other four have moved "up" after developmental spurts. Who knows which children will be there by the end of year 6. They are still so very small - nothing is set in stone.

If your dd is happy, enjoying school & making good progress, I don't think you have anything to worry about. :)

lol laundry
Why are you against grouping framey so the 'clever' 'bright' 'ahead' kids call them what you will learn from an early age that school is about sitting quietly twiddling your thumbs while everyone else catches up

I wouldn't worry about the grouping, honestly. They are only four to five. Nobody can predict who is going to be clever, who is going to get high grades, and who is going to be successful at this age. All children at 4 or 5 are equally clever.

They may call it grouping according to ability or "academic strength", but it is all nonsense. The groups simply make it easier for the teacher to get the teaching done.

Even at the age of 7 it is still pretty fluid. As long as your DD is enjoying school and appearing to make progress learning some things, I won't worry what other parents or teachers say at this stage. I had a DN whom everyone said was bright at 4 who struggled to pass her GCSEs. I have a classmate that everyone said was mediocre from age 6 to 12 who turned out to have an IQ of 150 at age 15, got into MENSA, got a good university degree and now has a very successful career.

im a reception teacher and i group children for phonics as i have children who can build quite complex words and others who are just learning their initial sounds. there can be a huge spread and i find there does tend to be a big difference between autumn born and summer born children but in my experience this levels out in y1. obviously thats a generalisation im not saying summer borns cant be high flyers!
i would ignore other parents comparisons and if youre concerened speak to the teacher. as someone mentioned they should share the foundation stage profile with you, ask to see it if not. scoring 6 is average, but anywhere between 4-8 is normal, with a 9 meaning above average.

Another thing to consider in reception is that a lot of the evidence that the teachers have in their records is by observations of the children when playing not necessarily when they are in their groups (child initiated play I think its called) this is great for the loud and confident child but if you have one who is quiet and reserved then this can go against them. I know this from bitter experience my ds got very poor marks on the eyfs profile in some areas when I knew he could do the things in question. When I questioned this I was told that because they had no evidence to support what I was saying that the boxes could not be ticked. Thankully, things have improved in year 1 thanks mostly to a more a formal approach to learning and he is a lot more confident now to speak up, still hates being in a big group but suits him in small group with same ability children and he has moved up a group already.

whysogrumpy
You could try getting your dd a small whiteboard and some whiteboard pens and let her "mess" with these. Children who are more "perfectionist" tend to lie these as "mistakes" can be rubbed out easily. If you have non-precious kitchen work surfaces or cupboard doors you could even let her write on these with dry-wipe pen. The introduction of a rather subversive "not-usually allowed" element often has a great appeal (and it comes off with ordinary kitchen cleaner as long as it is a smooth undamaged surface)! Ditto bath crayons and writing on the tiles/yourself/your baby brother!

Just to further sarahs idea you can get those bath crayons as well....

Long before I discovered MN, over 3 yrs ago to be precise, when my DS1 (summer born) started YR , he could just about manage to count to 10, did not know all the alphabets, had very poor motor skills so found it difficult to hold a pencil, liked being read to but did not particularly show any interest in books. I was very ignorant then about what happened in his class, I just use to work diligently with him on his phonics homework, help him with his numeracy which he quickly started showing a flair for. He also was terrible about telling me what had happened in school, so I just kept supporting him by building on the level of knowledge he displayed at home.

By the time he got to Y1, he started talking more about school and that was when i realised that they could be teaching them in groups. This was confirmed on our first parents eve in Y1 when he showed me which table he was on and the people who sat with him were apparently the ones doing so well. He also explained the reading levels and he was a band below the best readers

Now in Y2, his teacher has openly told us that he is doing very well, she said his handwriting is very good, same as his spelling (which as a parent I can see for myself), he is free reading, doing a different times table than the rest of his class, gets sent home extra worksheets for homework. So we are not worried but I bet that in YR he was probably at the bottom set. So sometimes ignorance is bliss.

I was planning to adopt the same approach with my DS2 (winter born so will be 4.8 when he starts) who will be starting school this sept, but after discovering MN 2 months ago, and read all sorts about what people's DCs can do by 2, I have started doing a lot more with him because unlike his big bro who is self motivated and gets a kick out of a challenge, DS2 is very laid back and hates any form of judgement (so if I say what is this he says 'I don't know you tell me').

What I am saying in effect is if you KNOW that your child is bright forget about the sets or groupings (which in my opinion makes sense) and just continue to support her at home and build on what she has learnt in school.