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Dyslexia Quest App - Low phonological awareness??

15 replies

mrsbaffled · 19/03/2012 20:36

I saw the Dyslexia Quest iphone app recommended on here the other day. I thought I would get it for DS (nearly 8) to try. He has done a few of the tests (he loved doing them) and preliminary results are average to good in all things apart from phonological awareness which he is significantly lower in.

(I will put a big caveat on the results - there differ significantly from the results of the tests the specialist teacher did ...he scored VERY highly in those tests, but only average in the Dyslexia Quest, but the phonological awareness is an outlier)

What does poor phonological awareness mean in practice? And what can i do to help him improve?

Some background:
He is an excellent reader, but a very poor speller.
He is doing Word Wasp at school already (on SA+) and I am teaching him touch typing to help with written expression, which he finds really hard. He has eye-tracking problems, but we are doing Vision Therapy and he's making good progress. He has been dx with "specific learning difficulties in spelling, writing and fine-motor control"

Thanks in advance for your thoughts x

OP posts:
IndigoBell · 19/03/2012 21:36

I think you're right to put a caveat on the results. It's a very 'rough and ready' screening tool, and I don't think for a second that the results from dyslexia quest are totally accurate - however I think they are worth listening to.

Poor phonological awareness means he can't manipulate sounds in words. For example DD was asked 'What word ends in ee - tree, day or cow' - and she couldn't answer.

So it definitely adversely effects spelling.

  1. I have been told to ignore DDs hearing problems until after she has finished vision therapy.
  1. Depends how much money and time you want to spend :)

I did Auditory Integration Training with DD which was fantastic and very expensive.

Pre AIT she made 40% errors in an auditory discrimination test. Afterwards, I forget, but around 5%. This means before treatment she couldn't hear the difference between words. ie maybe 'fat' and 'vat' sounded the same.

I don't think she could really hear vowels at all - certainly she didn't use any of them in her writing :)

I also did Earobics with her, which is sw we did every day. This certainly is designed to help with phonological awareness.

The sw I really like the look of, and am desperate to try, is Sound Reading. I think I would recommend this above Earobics, after you've finished vision therapy.

You could also test him again yourself to see how bad you think he is. He should be able to do things like -

  • What's blast minus b (If you say that to him - not reading it)
  • What's feet minus t
etc

(Also ones when you minus a letter in the middle)

There's a sheet somewhere with exercises to do (like the ones above). I couldn't find it last time I looked for it :) But I'll look again.

IndigoBell · 19/03/2012 21:39

Another online test for http://cog1st.org/wordpress/register-here/

IndigoBell · 19/03/2012 21:39

Sorry - test is for phonological awareness skill set

IndigoBell · 19/03/2012 21:46

If you google 'phonemic awareness activities' you'll find lots of ideas.

phonologicalawareness.org/8.html etc

mrsbaffled · 19/03/2012 21:52

Thanks indigo very helpful as ever - you have given me plenty to look into. I will have a proper look at all this tomorrow (it's been a long day!) x

OP posts:
maizieD · 19/03/2012 22:37

Manipulating sounds in words is very difficult for any child who has not been been given a good grounding in phonics. It is also not terribly relevant to reading or spelling. What is more important is that a child is able to identify, in sequence, the individual phonemes which make up a word. If they have been taught good phonics they will have been taught to break words into their component sounds as well as how to decode and blend for reading. Unfortunately, not all children get this good teaching.

However, if a child has an auditory problem this may be more difficult as they are unable to hear each phoneme distinctly, particularly as they alter slightly according to what the next phoneme in the sequence is.

No disrespect to Indigo Bell, who I admire greatly for her determination to help her dd, but I wouldn't worry too much about phoneme manipulation. (And I do know that herr dd has had lots of phonics instruction...)

I'd be working on sequential phoneme discrimination within words. I'd also be thinking about the physical aspects of phoneme production, the 'feel' of each phoneme, tongue position, passage of air etc. Even if a child can't 'hear' phonemes very well they can be taught to discriminate them this way. That is how hearing impaired children can learn to speak and read. I have known of a similar approach being used for children with speech production problems such as verbal dyspraxia.

This programme The Lindamood Phoneme Sequencing® (LiPS®) Program was used in the past for this by our local Speech & Language Unit (I don't know about now because we haven't had a child from there for a number of years...)

mrsbaffled · 19/03/2012 22:59

Thanks, maizie. I think DS has a good understanding of phonics. He has wizzed through the basics in Word Wasp (just checking the basic phonic sounds). Also we did Toe By Toe with him last year and he was superb at reading the nonsense words. He decodes extremely quickly.

I think his issue is literally hearing the difference between sounds. He (like his dad) can't distinguish between "thanks" and "fanks" for example. He also has sensory problems with noise.

OP posts:
Nospringflower · 19/03/2012 23:02

Hi mrsbaffled. I am doing Toe by Toe with my son and he is doing brilliantly with it which makes me think that that is not his problem. His hearing has been tested as normal but I think he cant hear the difference between words, like you say thanks and fanks. Not sure what I can do about that except make sure his spelling,writing etc isnt based on things he has to hear...

IndigoBell · 20/03/2012 06:31

Maizie - as you know, I'm learning all of this as I go. So all of these are genuine questions. Because I know you know an awful lot more about this than me.

So, 2 questions:

  1. If manipulating sounds like this isn't important, why are dyslexia quest, and loads of other dyslexia type tests, testing it?

I strongly suspect it is important (as a way to flag areas of weakness). Like I said, it highlighted that DD couldn't answer the question 'Which word ends in ee - tree, day, cow'. So, how can it not be important?

Although, I can believe, that it's a useful test to find out if there are problems, but it's not something that needs to be taught. (And none of the stuff I recommended did teach it)

  1. If MrsB's DS had done toe-by-toe, then it sounds like her DS has done a lot of phonics stuff. It really sounds like he failed this test not because he hasn't been taught phonics, but because he has (probably fairly minor) auditory problems.

Once you start googling, you will find loads and loads about how to work on this.

Maizie - can you link to anything else describing how you improve this type of auditory stuff?

I didn't like much of 'hornet literacy primer' - but the bit I did like was a page where it did the following words together:

  • fat
  • that
  • fan
  • than
  • fin
  • thin
  • fen
  • then

I'd add

  • vat
  • van

etc.

So, basically work on spelling 'fan, than, van' in the same lesson. (By dictation)

(For the record, DD couldn't do the sound manipulation stuff at all a few months ago. Now she can do it. The only auditory thing we've done since then is Earobics. Which doesn't teach this directly. But we've also done loads and loads of other things which might have helped indirectly. And her spelling has improved hugely over that time frame. Now she uses vowels, before she didn't. )

NoSpringFlower - what you are describing is 'auditory discrimination problems'. Google it. :)

Here's an Auditory Discrimination Test (Which I've copied from another site) to test for that problem.

mrsbaffled · 20/03/2012 09:01

DS had glue ear between 3.5 and 6.5. I wasn't all the time which is why they didn't do anything for it, but I can't help thinking this must have something to do with it. (And the wonder why I am getting so uppity about his little brother's glue ear LOL!)

The reception teacher worked hard at teaching him to say "that" not "dat". Only recently has he learnt to say "animal" not "aminal".

OP posts:
IndigoBell · 20/03/2012 10:04

I too would assume that the glue ear is related.

DD had very distorted hearing. Which we corrected aged 8 with AIT.

Which means she missed out on all the phonics activities I'm sure they did when she was in nursery and reception to teach this.

That is my guess what's happening with your boy. This phonic awareness stuff is a learned skill, which he didn't learn at the appropriate time due to glue ear, and he didn't learn subsequently because no one taught him.

mrsbaffled · 20/03/2012 13:26

Except that he does understand it. He applies it wrongly. He would write "atsited" for "excited" because that's how he hears it. Until recently he wrote "de" for "the" etc.

It's odd because he has a very high reading age, and can recognise the correct spelling if presented with a list of plausible spellings, but he just can't write it first time. Word processing seems to work as he can pick the correct word fom spell check most of the time.

OP posts:
maizieD · 20/03/2012 20:03

IB

Manipulating sounds is a bit of a party trick, IMO. I know that it features heavily on lots of dyslexia sites (and sites about reading), even Diane McGuinness, who I have a great deal of respect for as it was her 1998 book, Why Children Can't Read, which set me off on the whole phonics thing, says that it is a good test of phonological awareness, but I think that it is one of those things which gets repeated and copied without much thought about its validity.

If you think about it, neither spelling nor reading require sound manipulation. Spelling certainly requires that children can discriminate the individual phonemes in a spoken word but it doesn't require them to be taken out and the word without them identified. Nor does it require extra phonemes to be inserted in words. These are difficult tasks which require good phonmemic awareness and a certain amount of mental agility. All that spelling and reading (particularly spelling) require is the ability to discriminate phonemes in sequence. Much easier.

Phoneme manipulation is a very American 'thing', particularly as 'phonological awareness' was held by the NCLB findings to be a prerequisite for acquiring good reading skills. However, the UK SP programmes have demonstrated for years that a child can learn to read with no prior phonological (or phonemic) awareness (PA) as the nature of SP, which works from sound to symbol (or should do), 'This is the sound /s/ and this, 's', is how it it written', means that children are 'taught' each phoneme and develop PA as they are learning to read and spell. There have been many research studies done on training PA and the results indicate that, although PA training is better than no training at all, the very best results (in terms of learning to read) were obtained in studies where PA was done in conjunction with letters.

I am not surprised that your dd is able to do phoneme manipulation now; once children have developed a sensitivity to phonemes they will find manipulation much easier. Even adults find it difficult if they have been taught 'whole word' or 'onset and rime' or 'blends' because these methods do not encourage sensitivity to the smallest units of sound in words. This doesn't necessarily mean that they are poor readers (because many obviously aren't), just that they aren't very aware of phonemes.

I am afraid that my knowledge of improving PA in children with auditory processing difficulties or impaired hearing is more theoretical than practical as I have never yet encountered a child who cannot discriminate phonemes. Which is why I have my doubts about phonological problems being a common cause of 'dyslexia'. I have dealt with quite a few 'dyslexics' over the years. The more severe cases have had real problems with processing speed and short term memory but never with PA. I am not saying that no child has PA problems, just that they are far more rare than the dyslexia literature would have us believe.

I say my knowledge is theoretical but it is informed by reading about how children with hearing impairments can learn to read and lip read (which requires PA, if you think about it) by 'seeing' and feeling' phonemes and reinforced by the fact that one of the leading UK experts on APD says that children with APD need to be trained in phoneme discrimination..

Of course, the difference between some phonemes, such as t/d and f/v are more difficult, if not impossible for these children to discriminate as they are very similar in 'look' and articulation.

One child I worked with, who had speech production problems, had very impressive PA because he had been taught with the LIPs programme which I mentioned earlier.

Interestingly, one of the early (early 20th century) initial reading programmes, which was very much a forerunner of SP, spent a lot of time on teaching children the phsyical aspects of phoneme articulation, using mirrors and awareness of mouth and tongue positions and airflow during articulation.

I was a bit amused by the child who can't discriminate between 'fanks' and 'thanks'. I suspect that half the population of England can't do that! I spend a lot of time telling children to stick their tongues out to say 'th'! Most of them think (or should it be 'fink'?) that 'thought' and 'fought' are homophones... it might be getting to the point at which to give up the fight and just teach 'th' as a way to represent the /f/ sound. Grin

IndigoBell · 20/03/2012 21:09

Thanks. That makes sense.

daisymaisyjo · 25/09/2013 17:29

Yes, just to say I have found this fascinating especially as I've a child of just turned 11 who is severely dyslexic with very poor processing and poor working memory. I'm interested in learning more in order to help her as I'm teetering on home educating her or leaving her at school in the hope that they will fully support her as they were not particularly sensitive previously to her problems. For example wanting to put her with the year 1 and 2s for spelling lessons! She should be at secondary school by now but with her birth date being 28th Aug, the school agreed to keep her back a year.

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