Supportive but not pushy mum

[Blossom8]

My daughter is 2 years and 9 months and she can count and order numbers 1-50, loves stories, knows her alphabets, recognises around 45 words, knows her shapes, colours and can manage to do jigsaws for ages 2-6 year olds. She enjoys doing the above. She also gets plenty of "fun" time too which I feel is very important to get the right balance. We are off to the London Aquarium next week and I am booking tickets for her to see In the Night Garden at the O2.

So why am I needing opinions? After reading various threads on mumsnet, I'm concerned that by being "supportive" and "encouraging" of my daugther to know the academic stuff, I don't want her later on to resent studying. I just want to give her a good foundation with a interest in learning. Also I'm in a dilemma as to whether to send her to a private primary school. I have nothing against state schools but the ones near me are not that great and I don't want her to be "bored" and not challenged because she already knows the stuff.

I've read alot on here to say parents sending their kids to private are snobbish etc but I am far from snobbish, I had a state education, earn an average salary but would rather spend my hard earned cash on helping my child fulfill her potential.

I don't know about schools but 'wow' to your dd and what she can do.

I think you're thinking about this too much.

If she enjoys learning and you enjoy that interaction with her then that's ok. I would say that she sounds like a normal almost 3 year old to me having the same sort of trips and experiences which lots (although sadly not all) pre-schoolers have.

From memory, I think DS was doing everything you've mentioned here at the same age. He's now at school and is by no means streets ahead of the rest of his class. He's just normal - good at some stuff, less good or indeed less interested in others.

Schooling is something we all have to make a decision. Personally I haven't and wouldn't send my kids to private school and don't really subscribe to the idea that paying for education means that any child is more likely to reach their potential. But ultimately, who gives a fuck what I or anyone else thinks. It's your child, your choice. But make any decision based on a complete set of facts rather than assumptions.

there are loads of threads about what makes a school good - ofsted or reputation do not alway give the full picture, plus private not always equal the best - you have a while before you have to decide I guess -I am not expert but the people on the gifted and talented board on here might be able to give you some thoughts about what to look for in a school -
personally if she enjoys it then don't worry -
but I would say for starting school what is vital is social skills and looking after yourself skills ie being able to dress yourself, go to toilet on your own etc - how are those

yes I am trying to get the right balance but I don't want to feel that I am over stretching her. She's quite shy but generally social. She is currently at nursery. She is able to go to the toilet by herself which she only mastered recently and is capable of dressing herself to some extent. I'm a first time mum so I am trying to do my best in raising her well. I guess like most parents, I worry about schools as they can get influence by friends and I want her to go to a good school so she will enjoy learning and not get picked on if she is brighter than her peers but then again I cannot really assess her abilities to children of similar ages. I've read that some kids deliberately withhold their knowledge to fit in with their friends and as a consequence are held back academically.

I dont' know, maybe I'm just worrying unnecessarily.

Hi Blossom8:

You clearly have a bright little girl there who's doing very well indeed.

First - is she at nursery? If so - why not ask them what they think is best. They'll know where she is at in comparison to the other children and the type of schools the other children have gone to. Their advice might be quite helpful.

Second - as long as it's not endless flash cards I suspect she enjoys time with you and learning. Usually if a child doesn't enjoy it - it's pretty obvious. I'm sure you're not forcibly educating her.

Third - visit the schools you are considering (both state & private sector). It's difficult on an open day - they're putting their best face forward - but if they invite you to have a wander around the shcool on your own, take them up on that. Make the time to really work out which school you like best.

My impression is this, basically most primaries do a good job. I have posted elsewhere that I have several issues with our school and would gladly move to a better one (several nearby) if we could, but I also know that basically with a bit of help/ support at home my DDs are doing well.

So if you are happy to be involved (and enjoy it) - my advice is consider the atmosphere of the private school & ask around. If the feedback is that it's a bit snobby and the staff are at each other's throats - then seriously consider the state sector, but bear in mind that you will most likely have to do some home support as well.

One key fact to look into (because it will be reported from this year) is how many pupils achieve L6 on KS2 SATs - this Level 6 figure is considered exceptional (the target in 4a and end Year 6 age 11, L5 is considered above average). If the school can support pupils with that level of achievement that's a very good sign that they can support a child that looks to be exceptionally bright at near age 3.

You can also ask about what provision they have for gifted and talented pupils when you visit.

Finally what I will say - and to take the pressure off - is no matter what decision you make there will be pro's and con's. No school is perfect. One school might offer Chinese (which you'd love your DC to learn) but your school might not. One school might have great music opportunities - with all sorts going on (choir, orchestra, lessons, etc...) and your school might not. Your choice may have had a fantastic Head Teacher, but they retire and the new guy is dreadful. Also accept that there will definitely be one or two teacher's you just don't see eye to eye with. They're too strict or not that inspirational, whatever. So there is no perfect choice and you need to know that.

HTH

Some of those concerns I suspect will be valid once she's at secondary school but personally I wouldn't worry at primary.

The thing that's really impressing me about DS's s hook experience so far is how unpressured it is. It's a really good mix of self-directed and focussed learning which is really allowing him to develop at his own pace and in line with his current interests obsessions.

Clearly things change as they get older but I'm confident that right now he's challenged and is learning how to negotiate life within a community which is the most important thing.

I don't think it's really occurred to him that he's learning actually...

Shook! Clearly I meant school.

honestly at primary school I would be amazed if she got picked on for being bright and I agree most primary schools are good

as someone said children do develope at different rates - my DS1 talked very early - now he is Y1 and doing well - and still talks a lot - but he isn't exceptional by any means -and is certainly streched - at a state school BTW - there was a great post from someone whose DD is very bright about about going wider rather than quicker

I think you are seriously overthinking this, because you've read about a lot of other people seriously overthinking it. Your child is your child - you support and encourage her as you see fit. Her school's responsibility is then to deal with her as she is when she starts there.

My experience at my dss' state school is that the other children admire those who can already read and write and who are good at maths, or sport, or art, or singing, or anything else. My dss were often asked by other children in their reception class to read them stories or tell them what was written on the walls of the classroom. Jealousy and bad feeling doesn't come into the equation until children are much older than 4 or 5. So, look around the schools on offer to you without any preconceived notions as to what they are going to be like and make up your mind on that basis. You know your dd and her personality, what she can and can't cope with, how she reacts to situations, how she copes with periods of relative boredom, what she still needs to learn to make her a well rounded individual. Use that knowledge to inform you without letting assumptions and bias cloud your judgment. And don't worry so much - I have never understood why people worry so much about their intelligent children, as though this is some weird and fragile state to be in. Some intelligent people are really quite normal to interact with!

Agree with the above poster - in our class all of these things are celebrated and there are plenty of opportunties for children to shine. Much of the "academic" work we do is in small groups or 1:1 if necessary, so children work completely at their own level. However, reception is also about learning to make friends, to socialise, to negotiate, to understand the point of view of other children, to take turns, to work in a group, to understand and follow rules (etc) ... If a child does not have a sound grip of these things going into more formal education then the impact on their achievement is considerable.

This reminds me of my first post in this forum. My daughter is nearly four now and can read Dr Seuss and do all sorts of counting/calculation exercises. And that's because she does them with me at home. Not being able to believe that Reception teachers get their charges to read The Cat in the Hat and do sums using proper mathematical notation I couldn't believe that my daughter's education will be able to do anything but regress when she actually goes to school. She won't spend so much time with me, clearly, and presumably her teachers will spend time teaching her basic things like counting from one to ten and sounding out letters, because that'll be the level of most of her Reception peers. Obviously there isn't anything that I can do about it. I'll carry on doing the same kinds of exercises with my daughter whenever I can. I'll try to encourage the school to find appropriate exercises for my daughter to do. But I'd be mighty surprised if they respond appropriately. I'm assuming that if they've got thirty children to teach they can't have bespoke curricula for each of the children. That just doesn't make any sense. So my plan is to receive whatever the school gives us and just make the best of it. I'm assuming that working at a more basic level won't actually damage her in any way. She's very imaginative, so I'm hoping that she won't get bored. I'll try to ensure that she doesn't. But the school she'll be going to does put huge emphasis on making sure that all of the children are happy. So I imagine we'll manage something even if it isn't carrying on her education at the level she's at at the moment.

I know of a couple of dc in my dss class who were extremely advanced at reading and numeracy well before they started school. TBH, even though those dc are still pretty advanced in the year (top groups etc.), they are by no means as extraordinary as you would think and quite a few others are doing just as well as them. This is not because the school has let those dc down, rather others have really become ready to learn these things at a rapid pace and easily caught up with them.

My ds was extremely advanced with lego and painting prior to school - we didn't look at alphabet, phonics or numeracy because those were the things he wanted to do. He learnt to read fluently in a few months and was adding and subtracting 2 digit numbers at this stage in reception. Your dc are great at reading etc. because that is what they are interested in now. It doesn't necessarily mean they will always be better than everyone else at them.

One of the things I've always wanted to know is how does anybody know what other people's children are capable of? If my daughter can read the Hobbit, or Lord of the Rings at five years old, if she isn't actually doing that in front of all of the other children's parents then how can they know whether she can do it or not? Comes back to the thread about the parents handing homework to their children at the front gate and saying loudly "Remember how much you enjoyed playing the lead role in Hamlet at the RSC, yesterday, Cuthbert dear?" Otherwise how would the other parents know about it?

So, to me it's not really about what the other children can or can't do. That's not possible to know and it's none of my business anyway. But if I'm doing something which is probably non-standard with my four year old, like reading Narnia books or LotR (which I'm not) but just for the sake of argument, then how can I expect the school to follow my behaviour? I'm guessing I can't. So my child simply gets to read Narnia less often because she spends most of her time in school. How can we possibly know which children have caught up with whom when we don't know what they're all doing?

I admit, I don't see primary school as a place where it is hugely important for my children to be as challenged as possible in literacy and maths, given that they are already very advanced in those areas and I enjoy reading with them and playing about with numbers at home, myself (albeit I will be considerably more interested in this sort of challenge at secondary level, when I don't think everything they need to know will be picked up through games, general conversation and explanation, and the writing of diaries, stories and thank you letters...).

I see primary school as a place they go to Monday to Friday during term time to socialise, learn to follow a routine and accept a commitment to something, learn to be away from their nuclear family for a while, have fun and grow up to be responsible citizens capable of contributing to society. It's also a place where they learn what "the system" requires them to know and do and how they are expected to express their knowledge. At home, I see it as my role to encourage all those things, too (except the latter), share my interests with my children, keep them healthy, encourage and support their own passions and pass on to them everything I have to know about the world. At primary age, I think I can cover any academic needs and interests they may have, anyway, and would rather be sharing in that side of their lives a bit myself, because I enjoy it. Why make a big fuss about school pushing them and giving them different work when that will only mean taking something away from me that I and my children enjoy doing together for fun and might in any event by done in a way I wouldn't have favoured, myself? Why turn it into school work? They do plenty of other things at school, so why ask school to do what my children enjoy as a hobby at home, just because their hobby happens to overlap with what school is trying to teach???? There are plenty of other things they do at school that I don't do with them at home, because I'm either not so good at it, or not interested, or would need a larger group of children and more facilities to provide. They seem happy enough at school this way, even if they don't need to be taught some of the things they already know...

My daughter was like this at a similar age, Blossom. You'll be relieved to know that at five she is doing well in her pretty ordinary state primary, is not picked on for being bright, has tons of friends, and that the teachers are stretching her with appropriate work as well as allowing her to just be a little girl. I also went to a very ordinary state primary, was not stretched and was picked on a little bit for being bright yet still managed to get in to an extremely selective secondary and went from there to Oxford. Go and look round your local schools; ask what provision they make for bright children. You might be surprised. And even if they don't make much provision, you can do it yourself as my parents did. On an average salary you will really struggle to pay prep school fees, IMO - there are few bursaries available until later on.

LearnandSay it is clear you know very little about primary schools and how the reception year is run by the teacher and suport staff.

I am confident you will be pleasantly surprised. Believe it or not, teachers do manage to tailor their pupils' learning to suit their abilities, and especially within a reception classroom it is very easy to do this, the teacher will very rarely 'teach' all 30 children at once.

Trust me, they will still be able to push your child academically and give them more challenging work than another child who is less able.

blossom the best thing you could do is go and visit your local primary schools.

learnanssay I think you should home school

Blossom8 do what your child and you enjoy and don't worry about anyone else.

I think my children's primary school is doing a fantastic job of helping me produce caring, responsible, thoughtful, resourceful, practical and intelligent children. It is supposed to be a partnership, after all, not a handing over of all responsibility.

(ps for the avoidance of doubt, my dss' school also provides an excellent, well structured academic curriculum which my children find stimulating and enjoyable).

overmy, I don't know if my primary knowledge is lacking or not. We did visit an awfully large number of schools and elicited a variety of responses to some of my fairly pointed questions. They ranged from "we challenge children academically," from heads of the two nearest oversubscribed schools, predictably enough, to some pretty odd remarks about not teaching "her" to read dog if she can already read dog. That Reception teacher all but called me a pushy parent for having the temerity to ask her how reading was taught in her school. What she actually said was, "I'm not saying you're a pushy parent.." and then went on to say exactly that. I must admit, I rarely form an instant dislike to people, but I make an exception in her case. I met some sweet teachers who spoke to me, not at length about my teaching of my daughter. I've developed my own system. I really don't expect anyone to pick up the things that I'm doing.

mrz, I profoundly disagree with home schooling. Not because I disagree with parents teaching their children, I'm all for that. I don't genuinely believe that school is for teaching children anything like as much as they could learn if they were taught individually. I think home schooled children can, depending on their parents, tutors, network, regime and so on, can potentially learn far, far more than most other children in all kinds of schools, private schools included. But I believe that what home schooled children stand to lose in relation to what they gain is far greater. On the whole life, (in my opinion,) isn't about being well educated, for the main part. It's about fitting in. And you learn to do that largely in school. I believe that school is largely about socialisation and only partially about education. And I dearly want my children to learn how to fit in. I'm well prepared to fill in where educational needs are required.

thanks everyone for their opinions. It is very interesting to read peoples' feedback. It seems most of you would opt for the state sector. Thank you to PastSellByDate regarding information as to L6 on KS2 SATs as I was not aware of this. We have visited both the state and private school sectors. Overall we felt the private schools from what they offered to the behaviour of the children came up trumps over the state schools. However, the thought of paying for private school fees when I pay enough in taxes to fund state schools makes me feel perhaps going private in secondary schools would be a better option. In any case my little one may not pass the 4+ assessment to ge int. Currently there are over 100 applicants for 32 places. If we decide to go for the state route, I just hope with enough home support and perhaps private tutition later on will help her pass the 11+ to grammar school or pass the common entrance exams to private secondary schools.

Personally, with a very bright child who gets plenty of support from home and insufficient income to guarantee an entire school career within the private sector, I would very strongly favour saving up to widen choices at secondary level. Yours is not one of the children who is going to be so let down by their primary education that they will not be able to access the secondary curriculum. It is at secondary level that peer pressure and opinion and a complete lack of the teaching of some subjects within a school, or lack of good quality and inspirational teaching, is going to have the biggest impact on your dd's outlook, imo.

personally I think schools are for education home is for socialising -lots of opportunities for fun activities and clubs.

I think that depends on what you mean by socialising. Clubs and fun activities are great for meeting up with friends, but going to Beavers once a week isn't quite the same thing as going to school every day with a big mix of people, some of whom you wouldn't choose to spend time with, and learning when it is appropriate to play and when it is appropriate to get on with your work.