How many kids overall/ per year group does a prep school need to thrive?

[EBDteacher]

I know nothing about prep school finances. How many kids would you say was healthy/ safe from going bust in a 3-13? Can a school with 250 on role be relied upon to stay open? Is there a number you would say is too small to be a 'safe bet'?

Also, in terms of decent sports, drama, having enough people to choose friends from etc what would you say for the minimum in a year group?

I'm debating small v large as part of my final decision. DS is August born and I don't want him to get lost, but equally I don't want to put him in a school where he has to have 3 parts in the annual play and then have it close half way through year 6.

my son's school has about 25 children per year group, divided in 2 classes. It goes from 3 to 13, although in Years 7 and 8 they do have VERY small classes. Financially, it is doing fine. As far as sports go, there are enough boys to make up good size teams for most sports, but for girls sometimes they join Y3 and Y4. If the school is a charity, their finances for last year will be public, so you could check them.

I wouldn't have considered a school with less than 10 children in the class. I did go to see a very nice one near our house and rejected it on the basis that there were only 6 pupils per class. I think it would be difficuld for the child to develop socially with so few children in the class.

Our local prep has just gone bust it had between 4 and 7 per year group. Their minimum on roll to keep afloat was 70 with a max of 16 per class, giving the most kids in the school being 105. We have had to now find another place for our DD mid school year - we will never go for such a small school again.

Ours was 4-11 but the attached nursery had 24 on roll in 2 classes of 2 and 3 year olds.

Maybe 30ish in a year group is OK then? I know it must depend on how much their overheads are in terms of facilities etc. This place I'm considering runs a swimming pool .

Biltong my DSIS's kids' school is in the process of going down the pan so I feel your pain.

Impossible to give realistic numbers per year group. I know of a school thriving with 120 children, and one just about ok with 300.
It depends on so much more.

In terms of your child, I'd say 10 per class is a minimum for good friendships. If your child is sporty, are there enough children per year group to put out a team?

I teach in a Prep (with nursery/pre school). Our yr 4-6 have 1 class each of approx 16 children, but we are growing! Yr R-3 have 2 classes in each yr group with a total of approx 24/25 in each yr. We seem to be bucking the trend at the moment by expanding. We do our Games lessons as combined yr groups - but single sex for netball/hockey/rugby/football, so yr5/6 come together and 3/4. The children mix a great deal with other year groups so there are always plenty of social opportunities. I would say that a sensible minimum would be 15-20 in a class.
If the swimming pool is rented out to outside users that may pay for its running/upkeep anyway.

If numbers are very small there will always be a danger of it going under. However, if it has survived with very small numbers over the past 3yrs then I would guess it is probably reasonably stable. So many with small numbers have gone under since 2008. Those I know of who haven't have had day nurseries attached which bring in a lot of income. If accounts are published then check them. If not then I think it would be perfectly reasonable for you to query whether they are confident they will survive and how they manage it. After all, it could influence your decision.

As an aside, even the larger school you are considering will not have huge classes. My very shy DS1 thrived in a class of 18. I only considered schools with classes from 15-20. Anything less is too small IMO.

DD's prep school has about 90 in the school, over the 7 years. DD is now in Y5 and loves it and is thriving.

The school is financially fine from what we can gather.

The school do really well in sports, drama, choirs, etc. in local and county wide events. Sometimes they link up with the local boy's school too.

A local independent school went bust a year or so ago but it was on the cards. Rumours had milled round for a while and their accounts on the charities website, etc showed issues.

DD Yr 1 is in a class of 16. Reception is 18. Older years are about 12 per class.

Long established school, with a good repuation locally. Religious school - I know they receive some funding from that.

They do games with yr2 and music as a combined group.

School has a thriving nursery - even in these economic times they are getting more children joining the school.

Friendship wise it has been great for DD. She seems to play with boys and girls and seems to know people in different years.

Hmm, maybe my 'small school' is a prefectly acceptable size then. From what I can gather it has 2 classes of 15ish in each year group R-6 then about 18 - 20 kids in each of Y7 & 8 (grammar area).

I will ask about their finances but I'm quite sure they'll tell me they are fine even if they are not. Does anybody know where I can find financial data? Have googled with no joy.

The other school has 450+ kids, but yes class sizes of no more than 18. If I could look in my crystal ball to see whether DS will become a sporting god or an RSC worthy thespian I wouldn't worry about the hugeness but I can't help thinking it might be very easy for somebody average to become nobody in a school that size.

My DS (Yr2) and DD (Yr1) are both in a small prep school. The school is part of a 'family' of 3 schools, two prep feeding into 1 senior school. I know that of the 3 schools ours is the only one that is thriving, numbers slightly on the up despite the economic position, whilst the other two schools are dropping in numbers (the other prep is much bigger than the one my DC attend) DS has 10 in his class and DD has 13. I think whether a school will survive depends a lot on how well it is perceived by prospective parents, what the teaching standards are like, general feel etc. The advantage of being in the family of schools is that for sports in KS2 they link with the other prep so that there are enough to form teams etc. I agree with earlier posts though regarding checking the accounts. I would imagine that if you ask the school they are going to say they are fine regardless of whether this is true or not.

Which schools are you considering? If they have charity status then you can check their accounts on the Charity Commission website.

Ïn a school of 450 there may actually be less opportunities for your child. With more competition they may not make it into the school play, orchestra, be a prefect etc.

Charities commision for finances. I think it costs a fiver for the full run down.

MollieO it's come down to either Lambrook or the Dolphin.

Have decided against Ridgeway (although I really liked it) as I want somewhere that goes through to 13 so hopefully he won't have to move.

I am very tempted by the Dolphin but just want to be sure it's on solid ground.

Thanks fot the heads up about where to get the finacial info. Hasn't made me feel much better though.

Huge school is living within it's considerable means. Small school is privately owned (run by an LLP?) so no accounts available but the PTA spend more money than they raise almost every year??

There are 2 sources of financial information apart from the school. Firstly if the school is charitable then you can go to the Charity Commission website and type in part of the name of the charity in the search box at the top of the page. This will lead you to copies of the accounts etc, and this is free to use.

The second is Companies House, where again you can search for the company owning the school, and buy copies of relevant documents (usually £1 per document eg a whole year's accounts).

An independent school is typically either run by a charitable trust (so searchable under 1), a limited company (so searchable under 2), is privately owned by an individual, or is part of a group of schools or larger charitable foundation. At the very least it is important that you know which type of vehicle is used as that will determine a lot about how informed you will be as to future changes. Eg a Charitable trust will have named trustees responsible for the financial decision of the school.

For any prep school I think that the headteacher should be expecting a questions along the lines of "how many pupils do you need to break even?". The schools run on tight margins so don't be too scared if the numbers are close. Eg when I moved ds2 to a smaller prep I was told that the school could take a maximum of 172 children, needed 153 to break even and had 158 at that point in time. The school wouldn't close if they lost 5 pupils - they'd use reserves, consider reducing staff hours etc. It would be more of a concern if they needed 153 and only had 140 say. Obviously not all schools are standalone enterprises. On one hand it is comforting to have the strength of a larger group of schools as back-up, however it does mean that it is possible for key decisions to be made by people quite remote from the daily operations fo the school.

Thanks Ladymuck. I have now bought the most recent accounts sheet for the smaller school. I'm absolutely non the wiser though as I can't make head nor tail of it because I am a financial dunce.

I have, however, ascertained that the school is owned by 6 members of the same family... I'm not sure that sounds good. It reminds me of something from 'Country House Rescue'.

I'm definitely going to ask your 'how many kids do you need to break even' question. Even I can understand it in those terms!

Don't know Dolphin but know friends of friends with dcs at Lambrook who are very happy with the school. It does have Saturday morning school though, which puts me off.