Unhappy DS, meeting with Head coming up - advice please!

[sydenhamhiller]

Would be so grateful for any tips on this, as I really want it to be constructive!

OK, back story. DS is in Y3, there are 2 classes in his year group, and they seemed very similar in Reception, but in Y1, Y2 and so far, DS's class is this 'spirited' (teachers' description!) jostling mass of shouting in classroom/ on school trips/ to and from classroom...and the other class lines up in pairs, and produces about half the level of noise.

I know this doesn't have to matter, but a lot of class/ play time seems to be wasted waiting for everyone to do it properly, get told off, do it again etc etc etc.

Right, Y3. From the start, the Y3 teacher does not seem to be coping - very shouty and stressed. The odd time I've had to speak to the teacher about admin stuff etc, the poor woman is very stressed and flustered, and I really feel for her - the class really is challenging.

DS really likes rules, and hates being told off at school, so finds all this whole class punishment really hard saying 'but I did finish the work/ stay in my seat/ put my hand up and I still missed playtime'. I back the school line publicly (I taught in previous life) but increasingly wonder at the message DS is getting:" if you misbehave you miss playtime, and if you behave you miss playtime, so..."

DS has been really unhappy: lunchtimes without play because of 4-5 kids' behaviour; the last class down by a significant amount at the end of day because they're kept behind for not lining up properly. This is not just with the class teacher - with different PPA covers and the KS2 leader. This is an 'outstanding' primary, and I have been very happy (and Y1 DD has lovely class and is very happy) but for DS the whole atmosphere and school experience over the last 1-2 years just seems increasingly negative, full of punishments and 'negative' discipline and being told how 'bad' they are.

Anyway, DS has started to not want to go to school because of the shouting, is often tearful at collection because they've been told yet again what a naughty class they are/ missed golden time etc. I've tried to talk to the teacher but she gets very defensive. I wonder if DS would be happier in the other class, as they appear much better-behaved, so a lot less shouting and negativity...but DS is happy with his classmates, and they are lovely (just heedless!) - it's the shouting and punishments he is upset about.

A few other parents are 'chuntering', and I hate that - I don't want to be muttering at the school gate, I want to be constructive. We have no class reps, no opportunity to speak to parent governors, never given feedback forms, so I feel stonewalled. After dithering since Christmas, I've finally made an appointment to speak to the Head at the end of the week - first time in our 4 years at this school!

What can I say without sounding whiny? And not as long-winded as my post :) Or am I being PFB about all of this? I don't think so...DD in Y1 is having such a very different experience, and going on both their school trips recently was depressing - the difference in behaviour was so striking. Grateful for any advice anyone can give.

Hi, I think you have expressed your self very well here. Prehaps you could write a letter to the head for her to read before your meeting. That way she'll be able to consider every point you make carefully and also the written word gives your view even more weight.

Then when you go to see her you won't have to worry so much about how it all spills out. Also maybe she will take time to observe the class before your friday meeting.

My post of a couple of weeks ago (apologies for the length - I was getting myself in a real pickle about it).

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/primary/1404180-DDs-yr-2-class-is-out-of-control

Our school have a parent group and I have emailed the head to get myself on it. A new behaviour policy was brought out at the end of last year. Seems to have made no difference at all to the chaos (I am also worried about playground). So I am ging to the meeting asking for an update on the implementation of the New Behaviour Policy.

Does your school have a Behaviour policy?

Could you suggest a parent group?

I think Bumbums idea of a letter is good too, you could always email it.

Good luck and let us know how you get on.

I believe that you are doing exactly the right thing. You have tried to talk to the teacher and this has not resulted in any change in behaviour patterns and so the next port of call is the head teacher.
At present I would keep it very friendly and explain that your son is now getting to not want to be in the class etc and say that you are concerned by these changes in behaviour.
What you are not going to get in all probability is any agreement that things are bad. But what you have to do is allow the head teacher to start taking some appropriate action. That maybe with the pupils, it may be with improving the teacher's control of the class etc. I would hope that within say a month you will see some obvious signs of improvement. If you don't that is when I would suggest that you make a formal complaint that your son is not receiving the education they deserve because of the poor behaviour in the class. Initially I would try and steer any negativity from being specifically about the teacher but keep it at class level, so it does not seem personal. But if it progresses then it will have to be personal.

Aww, thanks everyone. I am very keen not to make it personal - indeed, as DS's class has appeared to be the 'bad' class since Y1, I don't think anything this teacher can do will improve the situation... but what will? Mixing the kids around? Our school doesn't do that. Do I just give up and either (a) see if I can swap DS to the other class, or(b) look at another school? I hate to sound defeatist, but they had a FAB teacher last year, and they are still a nightmare...
DS said tonight: "I had a really awful day today, Ms X told us we were ugly..." and promptly burst into tears :(

I did the Mum thing of saying 'well, that seems very unkind, are you sure that's exactly what she said" and "well, if someone says something like that, it says more about them, don't you think?"...but just feel so sad that this is DS's experience of primary school now - it's only Year 3 and it just seems to be about SATs, and literacy and numeracy, and no joy at all. But I don't know how to get that point across without sounding flakey...

Identifying the ringleaders usually helps in sorting out bad behaviour.

If you're worried about waffling, write a few keys points or phrases (constructive criticisms!) on a card before you go, then you can day what you need to without getting off track and sounding like you're whinging.

There is a class like this in DS's year. To be more exact, there are a few individuals who are the catalysts. Whenever they are in a class together, that class becomes labelled as the "naughty class" very quickly, and I sympathise, OP - it is clearly very wearing and de-motivating for the rest of the class. I get the principle of class punishment - that peer pressure will cause the behaviour to improve, but sometimes it just does not work. The catalysts in DS's year are, individually, lovely (if somewhat "full on") DC, but put them together and....

Incidentally, the same pattern was starting to develop in DD's YR class and the school have instantly taken the chance to split the class (because it was too big) and split up the potentially disruptive group while they were at it - before they get labelled.

What the school need to do, IMHO, (and what DS's school have done, as much as they can) is to identify those individuals and separate them so that they are sufficiently diluted for peer pressure to work. OP - your conversation with the head clearly needs to be about the class as a whole, throughout the years, not just the current teacher. The head needs to intervene - and if I were you I would challenge the "Our school doesn't do that" w.r.t. mixing the classes - it would appear to have reached the point where that is exactly what needs doing, if only to give them a fresh start and dispel the "naughty class" label - although it is likely to meet with strong resistance from the parents of the angelic class.

It might be worth addressing the lack of parent interaction as well while you are at it!

Good luck.

I could have written the bit about the unfairness and inappropriateness of whole class punishments, actually!

DS2 is in Y6, in a 2 form per year school. Funnily enough, it's the other class that have the 'spirited' label attached to them and have done as far back as I know (DS2 started here in Y4) BUT we have really been finding this year that there have been several ishooz.

DS2 is quiet, well behaved, immature (but in a baby-talk, cuddling teddy sort of way rather than attention grabbing misbehaviour sort of way!), rather inarticulate and very average academically.

He was moved from his maths table to another specifically (according to him and another friend- who is far more articulate- I know his mum well AND she works there as a dinner lady) to 'break up' 2 boys who were being disruptive (as usual). A fight over an information sheet broke out between one of these boys and a girl, resulting in the sheet getting torn. Whole table detention.

Y6 boys hooning around on the astro-turf pitch; a Y2 gets hit by a stray football, whole year group ban on playing football or on the astro turf pitch. etc.

I think 'whole class punishment' is lazy and ineffective. When you think about it, its purpose is to invoke 'peer pressure', to get the rest of the DC to gang up on the miscreants to 'sort them out'. This is totally unacceptable in a primary school setting and rides roughshod over Anti Bullying Policies.

Fortunately, DS2 is coming to the end of his time there (though he is nowhere NEAR ready for Big School..). He is generally happy enough, has a reasonable bunch of friends but I can safely say I would be taking the measures you're being advised to if he were in anything but the final year.

Good luck.

I should add that, interestingly, for the first time ever, when DS2 was about to go into Y5, a letter went out telling the parents how they were going to 'reorganise' some year group classes for the sake of 'balance' and so at to 'afford the best learning opportunities for all our children' yada yada. Caused quite a tir in the playground after school, I can tell you! DS2's year has never been changed around, apparently, but Y1, 3 and 4 were, for instance.

I can only think that they did it to 'spread the love' a bit- but I now sort of wish DS2 was in the other Y6 class, the allegedly 'spirited' one as that teacher, who is also HoY, appears to be far more on top of who the trouble makers are in her class.

stealthsquiggle- that's a great point about focusing on the class. This teacher has brought it into focus, but she's not really my issue- I can't see them changing next year even with different teacher... And I feel desperate at thought of DS having another 3.5 years of this!

I guess I am looking for any advice (pathetically) on phrasing- I don't want to demonise 29 kids- as someone said above, they are lovely but full on! How can I broach this with the head 'I've seen that they are noisier and more disruptive than other Y3 class'? Can I say more than 'I'm interested to see what steps the school takes?'- as they've done nothing over past 3.5 years, but feel I can't demand they reshuffle classes just for my PFB :)

(even though that's what I'd like!!!)

I think it is worth bringing it up with the head, and the fact you have not been in for 4 years will certainly communicate to her that this is important. Is he really going to stay in this class the whole way up the school? Our school mix in Y2, I don't know if they get mixed again or not, but I can't wait for ds1's class to get mixed up! I think it's really wise to mix classes as you do get very uneven classes. Ds1's is very uneven in terms of very, very advanced kids, so he's very much at the bottom, whereas in other classes he'd be more average. These advanced kids are also a bit 'alpha' and tend to put other kids down a lot, so it's really unhealthy. I am going to request he be kept away from them next year. If that hadn't been an option for me, then I would have moved him I think, as it's done his confidence no good.

On the positive side with your ds, if he has friends and they are nice kids, then this is more what will inform his experience of primary school, not one 'bad' teacher. But I would ask whether it would be feasible to mix classes next year.

Lovely but full on is great! You can say you've noticed it since Y1 too, so it's not just this year. Chances are if it is as bad as you say, the teachers will be jostling not to get that class! If you feel you are not being heard, you could be a bit more hardline and say that you love the school and have had no issues for 4 years, but this is becoming quite an issue. And ask about reshuffling, you don't need to demand it, but ask if possible. And if not, why not?

Why not phrase it just like that "in my experience, the class is lively but full on. I'm interested to hear your take on it" and then try and get the teacher's side of the story about what punishments are being doled out? I dare say the teacher girdig herself for a tough parents evening, so if you approach it from that angle, she may be relieved that she's not under attack.

I think it would be a fair point to make that the whole class punishments are not actually working since the poor behaviour continues. So it's reasonable to consider other approaches. Agree with noting all this down in bullet points / a brief 'script' and going in to the head with that. I don't like the sound of 'teacher told me we were ugly' at all, though, and would raise that with the teacher herself: 'DS told me something really strange, you know...?' just to make her aware that you know. That's not the way to speak to a class, however naughty some of them are being.

With the 'ugly' thing there could be many contexts for this which the child missed (though still not a good word to use imo). For example, lining up if they were all over the place could be described as 'ugly' or making 'ugly noises' or 'ugly behaviour' if they were fighting. I doubt she just called them 'ugly' because it doesn't make sense. Still, a more accurate word would have been better and less confusing.

One of the reasons that schools are somewhat reluctant to change classes around is that it sets a precedent for parents requesting a change and expecting it to happen. What starts as a single request usually then escalates to a torrent as the school finds themselves unable to stop the requests / demands.
Hence no changes is the option of choice.

But admission, if change always happens, say in Y2, then no-one is requesting it, they are expecting it to happen. Admittedly there may be some parents who say, "I'd rather my child isn't with this child because..." (I am one of those, and I think teacher will agree with me) and as long as their reason is valid that's ok. If some parents come in and say, "I'd rather my child isn't with that child who has SN" then they need to be kindly put straight by the head. Or come in with a list of 20 kids they don't want their precious kid with. It is up to a head to be able to manage these things for the good of the kids, not for what is easiest for them to deal with.

Oh thanks for the warning, custardcake. Maybe I will just hope the teacher has the wisdom to do this. Saves me the difficulty of asking, but on the other hand I don't want to risk it. Not demand it, but say it's what I'd prefer so she's aware. He has really damaged my ds's self esteem. She does realise there are issues between them, and usually separates them anyway, but as they are also 'friends' they may end up being put together from that point of view.

Hi sydenhamhiller:

I agree with bumbum in that it would help speed matters up in the meeting if you prepare the head in advance for the subject of your meeting.

I would raise the following points.

1. concern about the general behaviour of your DS' Y2/ Y3 class.
2. concern that there is loss of learning opportunity because of time needed to settle this group
3. concern that the entire group is punished regardless of whether individual children have been good.

You would like to specifically discuss with her your concerns about how this is affecting your son emotionally and educationally. In particular, you would like to discuss with her specifically how the whole class punishment is upsetting your son. You are worried that your son no longer enjoys school or looks forward to school days. You would be grateful if the Head could discuss this with you and, if possible, make it clear what the school can do to help turn this situation around for your son.

This lays no blame and firmly puts the ball in the Head's court. More importantly it is specifically requesting that the Head tells you what she's going to do about it and gives her some time to investigate and intervene.

Thanks everyone, really helpful feedback - don't know how I negotiated life before Mumsnet!

pastsellbydate thanks for that, exactly what I need! HT is great, esp with kids - but think he is shy with parents: avoids eye contact, abrupt. So if I give him something in writing, it should focus things wonderfully!

I can handle myself, but fear it's not going to be a lovely "Oh Mrs Sydenhamhiller sorry to hear about your concerns, let's have a cosy chat", but a "O my lord, you precious woman parents, what now" defensiveness.

I help a lot with fundraising and volunteering in school, so hoping he appreciates that I am not making the appointment to pick holes - I really try to get behind the school and make a positive contribution.

Will let you all know how I get on - I know a couple of you are in similar situations.

Thanks again everyone.

Will you let us know how you get on?

Good luck.

Just to say thanks so much again to all posters above - had my meeting this morning, and felt ready for it after the support and advice on here.

HT disarmingly nice and supportive - hardly needed to make my case. It was accepted it was a 'spirited' class, and whole class punishments had really affected the whole class morale, and certain steps have been taken to try and get everything back on track...

The 'mixing up the classes' issue was raised by HT as a consideration, but that this sometimes this just creates other issues. As DS is happy with friendship group, I know the chaotic class thing is more my problem than Ds's, and I just feel so much better that this was acknowledged and that they are aware of it...

Thanks everyone - and best wishes to others in similar situations.

Good to know the meeting went well, sounds like the head listened.

Fingers crossed things improve.

I posted above about my DD's class, we have some action too and things are looking up.