School procedures - mumsnet jury required!

[gilmoregirl]

I recently posted about procedures primary schools have in place for the collection of children due to my concerns about the procedures at my child's school.

Yesterday I received the email below from my child's after school club.

I am very concerned about the issues raised, please can you read this email and let me know what you would do if this happened at your child's school?

"Dear Parent

As you may know, our procedure in the case of a child not appearing for collection is to ask at the school office to determine whether the child was absent from school or not.

If they were not absent, then this would raise immediate alarm bells for us, and we would seek urgently to determine their whereabouts. If a child was not in school, we would usually try to phone the parents later on to confirm this, but without the same urgency.

There have been one or two instances over the last few months where the school office has informed our staff that a child is in school, but where it has eventually transpired that they were not. This has resulted in some delay to the remaining children, who have to wait at school with the staff until we can contact parents to find out if the child is absent from after-school club and/or school.

I recently took this up with the school office, who have informed me that their computers go off what the teachers input on the register, and that if the teacher has not updated the register, then we may not get the correct information.

For this reason, I would like to change our policy to the following; that if a child does not appear, we will seek to contact parents/carers by telephone to determine their whereabouts, rather than confirm with the school office. This is because I would not like to rely on third party information that we cannot be sure of. It is likely that this may result in occasional delay to the transport of children, if parents/carers have not left a message re: the whereabouts of their child that day. For this reason, it is very important that all parents/carers please phone, text, or email (before 1pm in the case of email) to let us know if your child is off school or will not be at after school club for any reason.

Yours Sincerely

After school club manager"

I would want them to check with the school first, tbh. Can you imagine if you are an hour (or more) away at work, and got a call off the after school club to say they couldn't find your child !
I think it's reasonable of them to expect the parents to let them know if they aren't going to be there, but we know with the best will in the world this doesn't always happen, and I wouldn't have a problem with my child waiting while the staff checked up on a missing child. Generally though, the other dcs would be able to tell the staff - Oh, "x went home" which the AS staff could report to the office for them to check with the teacher if it wasn't showing up on the register.

I am happy to let the after school club know if my child is off.

What worries me is the fact that the school are unable to confirm whether a child is in attendance or not!

Sorry, my question was not clear.

(It is whether you would be worried by what the after school club is saying about the school)

Yes I would be worried too. The school should have accurate information about who is in and who is out of school.

What are you thinking of saying in reply? Are you going to follow this up with the school?

I have been in touch with the school but they keep focussing on the after school club's procedures.

In my opinion the issue is bigger than the after school club - it is the fact that the school cannot say for sure if a child is present or not! What woudl happen if there was a fire? I think it is terrifying!

I'd ask the After School Club if they could have a phone number or answer machine where parents could call to say that their child isn't at school. I'd prefer that to a call at 3:30pm.

I would be concerned that registers in school are not updated. What if there were a fire? How would they know whether to look for a child or not?

I have no idea how a school can be comfortable with being unsure if a child is at school or not. This is surely a huge child protection issue and something that OFSTED could fail them on automatically.

The registers should be done morning and afternoon by the teachers.
But if children then go home during the school day, or arrive during the school day do they not have to report to the office and inform the school office, who then update the registers again - if nothing else, incase of a fire evacuation, etc?

I am surprised the school have even allowed a letter from the after school club go out stating this information - highlighting the school has a potentially serious child protection issue!

There should be a governor with responsibility for school procedures - ask them!

Registers are a legal document - child safety depends on them being accurate. Teachers can have a reprimand on their personal record for not maintaining registers properly! Most schools have a signing in/out book to record dental appointments etc. The school office has to know exactly where your child is - they pass the school's 'parental responsibility' to the after-school club. I'm so shocked I've actually posted for the first time in months!

I thought up to date registers were basic, fundamental stuff in a school.

Oh, right, I thought it was about the ASC letter, sorry.
The register, per se, is a record of who is there at registration though. It would need to be cross referenced with the school's procedure for signing out if you go home sick/to an appointment/music exam/sports fixture / etc.
I would calmly check with the school office what the procedure is and then let them know that the ASC is sending out letters that suggest the school doesn't know who is at school at the end of the day. I expect the school will then deal with the ASC.

I think you do need to check exactly what the school is doing here, because as a safeguarding issue the idea that registration forms have not been completed is just unacceptable. Many schools now do it by computer straight onto the SIMS software system that most schools use. If Ofsted came in and saw that the registers were not being completed it would raise real concerns.
As a totally separate issue but just as important is what happens in an emergency at the school. Again it is totally wrong that they apparently do not know what is and who is not in the building.
As others have said speak nicely to the school first because this could be the ASC who are blaming the changes they want to make on the school.

I think it sounds as though the parents are being involved in an argument/conflict between the school and the ASC.

Have you shown the school the email?

I think it would be a good idea to print it off and let them see it.

gilemoregirl

Our school takes registers first thing in the a.m. and any absence is recorded then. Parents are expected to call and speak to staff (or leave a message) or e-mail to explain if a child is ill. Parents are also expected to notify school if a child needs to be absent for a doctor's appointment or an event. I'm not sure if the school will contact a parent if the child is absent just one day, but they will on the second day.

The school doesn't inform the club who is there or not - but each class does know which children will be going on to after school clubs. These children are released to the afterschool clubs prior to the main release of children. Usually the other children attending the club explain to the language teacher/ sports teacher of the club if someone is absent.

Our After School childcare club also picks up children from these clubs at 4:30 - and again the school is aware which children are collected by the Childcare provider - and these are signed for and released.

We did note that signing for children was all in force in the run up to OFSTED but has dropped off now that OFSTED has finished.

However I must add we're a very small primary (single form) - so this style of attendance management might not work in larger schools.

Registers need to be kept accurately, and schools need to know who is on their premises (eg by readily available sign in/sign out book for arrivals/departures at odd times).

Now, anyone can make the odd mistake.

But the ASC's stance suggests the information from the school is now of such poor quality they are no longer prepared to rely on it.

This would be a cause of concern to me, and I would take it up with the school's management chain asap (and consider going quickly to OFSTED if anyone prevaricates on as basic a safeguarding issue as this).

Mmm, I'd be worried, too OP.

Assuming that the ASC is independent, then their contract is with the parent - to pick the child up from a specified location (the school) and care for them until the child is collected by parent/nominated person.

I fully understand why they have asked parents to contact them directly if they have been misinformed by the school - and they may well be highlighting the issue in this way to parents specifically because they have concerns about the school procedures but are unable to act.

The school procedure you describe worries me, tbh. Schools should know, at any point in time, which children on their role that they are responsible for at that moment - no matter how large or small the school. As well as fire/evacuation considerations there is a whole raft of child protection issues to be considered, and if this is the way in which they approach such a basic matter, how do they deal with more complex issues? Would their procedures prevent a child being collected by an adult who was prohibited from having contact for instance? It seems unlikely that the staff would be familiar with these issues if they don't even have a clear idea of which children are on site!

Of course, it could be the school being "difficult" with the ASC - and in fact, they may know very well which children are present and which are absent - but are using it as an opportunity to distance themselves from the ASC. By any chance, is the ASC run by a neighbouring school - perhaps one with whom there is ongoing rivalry?

Have re-read your opening post. Are you in Scotland? If you are, I've got a pretty good idea of how the registration system works and could advise.

Sorry if this is not the case.

There isn't a single standardised registration system. Some schools self register, others have electronic systems, some even have smart cards that read the pupils data as they arrive and some rely on a teacher marking a register. None are 100% fool proof. I've had children who think it's funny to self register someone else and others who answer the register for other children (or don't answer at all) and the electronic readers can be temperamental ... perhaps we should chip them at birth

I have suggested that same system at our school, mrz - scanning them in and out would be foolproof then.

Sounds like a huge breakdown in communication between school and after school club, and as a parent I would be following up the concerns raised.

That said, I think it would do no harm to let after school club know if my child was absent, as a courtesy - I do the same for my childminder. I know that's a different situation -but a belt and braces approach wouldn't go amiss - although parents shouldn't need to do this because attendance procedures are lacking at school.

As a teacher home time dialogue goes something like ..."who is collecting you tonight?"
"dunno"
"are you going to ....?"
"dunno"
Me to private day nursery staff who collect children
"Is xxxxxx supposed to be with you tonight?"
"They're not on my list"

Our ASC have rung me before (when DH was supposed to inform them DS wouldn't be in or would be picked up by grandma or similar) but we do try to let them know beforehand. I don't trust DH to tell them any more!! School procedures are a bit more tricky, I would expect them to have written procedures and risk assessments for registration, handing children over to the ASC and emergency situations but then I work in a lab and we can't blink without having a procedure for it!!

I presume from your previous post you are worried about what happens at the end of the day and the ASC seem to have concerns too. Can you try asking for the above 3 procedures/risk assessments? If they don't have them, get the Head to write some. If no joy after that, inform ofsted.

Thanks for all of the replies.

Yes, MissA I am in Scotland - I would find really appreciate confirmation of how the registration should work.

It is a private ASC (as the school one seems to be v similar to the freemasons in terms of admissions so I gave up!). I felt that the tone of their letter was almost accusatory of the school.

I am surprised that none of the other parents who got the letter have had the same reaction as me.... I am hopefully going to have the opportunity to discuss the issue with the school as I am very concerned.

As far as I am concerned it is not an issue for me to phone ASC but it is an issue that the school are not able to confirm whether a child is in the building or not!

First of I think it is a good idea to contact the school to confirm the information in the email is correct. As I said upthread it reads to me as though there is conflict between the ASC and the school and you are caught in the middle.

It sounds to me as though the school is using an electronic system for registration. The teacher completes the register and it is sent electronically to the school office. After the admin staff have 'closed' the register a list may be sent to the ASC. This does not mean that the school does not know where your child is later on in the day.

In all the schools I have been in, entry is allowed only through the front door of the school which the admin staff control. Therefore children being sent home ill will go through the office staff and be collected from the office by a parent for an appointment. The ASC may not have an updated list but the parent would know where the child is. I would imagine this is why other parents do not seem alarmed.

As a matter of courtesy I contact the ASC every time there is a change in arrangements or DS is off school. I would never expect the school to do this as I am responsible for DS at 3.15, not the school.

I hope that makes sense.

I hasten to add that this is in Scotland.

Blimey, that was an essay.

It is a private ASC
as a school we wouldn't actually give out information to a third party

I think that the ASC is being reasonable, you are supposed to let them know (phone/text or email) if you don't then they will call you to check at end of the school day.....fair enough.

It may be that the school isn't keen to checking for the ASC, they may feel that should be between the parents and ASC.