7+ entry from state primary schools.

[Pyrrah]

Hi everyone,

I've been reading my way through as many threads as possible but still have a few questions!

I'm probably thinking way too far ahead - DD turns 3 in May - but having nearly been caught out by applications for primary school nursery class last autumn, I guess it's better to know well in advance and then relax for a few years rather than missing the boat!

Anyway, ideally we'd like to send DD to somewhere like CLSG. Both DH and I went to selective private schools, I also went to a fiercely academic hot-housing prep school and did CE at 13.

We live in central SE London and moving is not in the equation. There are no real options for prep schools in the area - we also don't have a car and we both work. The primary schools round here are also pretty dire (there is one great one but we don't have a hope of hell of getting in as we're too far away and it's very popular.

So, I'm looking at the choice of a not great non-denominational, a not so great CofE and 2 RC primaries. We're both pretty staunch atheists, but will be opting for the CofE as the least bad option - and at least very close by.

DD is currently at a private nursery. They're very play-based and don't 'teach' which is what I was looking for. DD is very bright and I don't want her bored rigid before she even gets to school.

The nursery called me in last week to say that they are having a few issues where DD doesn't want to play with the other kids in her age-group and will only play with the 4 year olds. She's at the same level as them in terms of verbal development and a lot of what she can do so they want to move her to doing activities with the 4 year-olds rather than the 2 year-olds.

I'm frankly terrified - both DH, I and my youngest sister went to school 2 years early and we all paid the price in terms of being academically capable of easily holding our own but emotionally way behind. However I am also terrified of having a child who becomes bored and looks for alternative entertainment/stops finding learning fun!

I put DD's name down for the CofE primary's nursery class and if we get a place she will go there from September. The hope is then to get her in the following year for Primary. The Ofsted reports over the last 5 years have all made a point of saying that they don't cater for bright children.

As we don't have any decent primary level private schools around here, we are coming to the conclusion that 7+ might be fairer and a better choice than 11+.

However, I have no experience of getting selective places from a state primary (and a not good one at that). From what I have matched up from the exam papers and the primary's curriculum, the primary is already way behind in terms of syllabus by that age.

I know schools all say not to tutor - and that is fine, but I KNOW the standard that a really top prep-school is working at, and it is a million miles away from what DD will get down the road. Yet she will be competing against children from these schools. We also can't really tell the primary what we are planning or ask for help from them.

If we are going to go down the tutoring route, I'm wondering if it's better to start early and just tick along with it right through to the exams, or to do an intensive blitz in the final 6 months. Should we look at things like Kumon (amazingly there is one in the area)?

This probably sounds totally ludicrous to most people and obviously if as she grows up it becomes apparent that DD is either not that way inclined or would perhaps do better not in a high-octane academic environment we will adjust accordingly - but for now she appears to be very similar in temperament and potential ability to my husband and I and would therefore probably thrive.

Would love to hear from anyone who had BTDT - got their child into a school such as CLGS, SPGS, JAGS or similar from a very 3rd rate primary school.

(Apologies for novel...)

I did exactly this this year. I wouldn't say dd's primary is third rate but it's definitely not first rate either, in fact it's the school most people in the neighbourhood actively shun - on snob grounds imo. It is, however, very close to us and has a lovely atmosphere which was not true of any of the pre-preps I visited, which I didn't like at all.

I didn't hire a tutor, just did a bit of maths with her over the Christmas holidays to bring her up to speed with the syllabus, as they obviously hadn't covered it all at school. I can't say it was an enjoyable experience - dd is a fairly rebellious type, but it didn't last long and she got in to the school we wanted.

Now she doesn't want to go because she loves her current school so much .

Obviously, I don't know your dd but I am just saying it can be done - and without kumon and without intensive tutoring. The schools know what they're looking for and they're aware of the educational backgrounds of the children and make allowances for them. Let me know if you want any more info.

Thank you so much for your reply!

Although the schools say that they take educational background into account, I presume that they still need to have covered the same syllabus for the exams - ie know up to 10x tables etc?

One of the reasons we are thinking 7+ rather than 11+ is that there is less catching up to do.

Do the schools also take the background of the parents into consideration? Would being from a middle-class background with Oxbridge educated parents who drag their child round every museum in London cancel out the dodgy primary school or are the parents not interviewed before the selection process?

I've deliberately not taught DD anything - so it's not as if she's reading and writing yet, or one of these Maths GCSE aged 5 type of children but she is the kind of child that learns things extremely quickly and who people instantly pick out as very bright just from the way she acts - she's no wallflower either.

I am not worried about how she would interview or manage a day assessment - the schools know what they are after and she's either got it or she hasn't and I wouldn't dream of coaching for it. It's just the exams I'm concerned about.

What sort of age was your DD when you went to look at schools? Also how did the primary school react to your sitting DD for a school at 7+? Did you tell them in advance or just when you'd got the place?

I have been involved in 4+ and 7+ both as a parent and a teacher. Unlike the 11+ or CE, the 7+ process is usually far more based on potential with a lot of weight given to the interview. The do assume those children sitting who are currently at state school will be working within the confines of the NC and tehrefore will not be as 'prepped' as those sitting from the more intense atmosphere of the local pre-prep. If you do tutor, you will certainly find it easier on your DD to start now rather than leave it to an intense 6mths in the run up to the exam.

A general rule is that academically, selective schools are looking for a child to be working at NC level 3 or above by the end of Y2. A bright child should be able to achieve this even in the most laid back of state primaries. IME, that (L3) is usually the benchmark and then to make final selections they look more in dept at how the child came across, what their potential could be and where they are coming from.

I don't think the best, academic day schools are remotely interested in where the parents were educated, only that family life is conducive to school life.

Disclaimer: My experience has not been in London but I do have experience in both Surrey and Cheshire where competition was fierce.

As for letting the state school know. Firstly, it cannot legally affect your application there. Secondly, although they will not prep her in any way, they will be well used to children moving at 7 and even if they were not happy, there is nothing they can do.
Btw, I noticed you are moving your DD to attend the state nursery class attached to the school. You do know that legally, this cannot have any affect on your application for that school? Children who attend the nursery are not allowed to be given priority over applicants who do not. (just adding in case that was the reason you were moving her)

Oh and just to add, My children were at a highly selective day school and some of those children joining at 7 from state schools were behind. But crucially, that was just because they hadn't been taught to the same level rather than because they were any less able if that makes sense. Within a term they were up to speed.

We had the same experience as ItsMeMargaret - second-rate primary school, dd offered 7+ entry to CLSG, despite very minimal preparation. I don't think they were supposed to know tables to 10x, iirc it was 2x 3x 4x 5x and 10x, but that might have changed. Dd couldn't do all of those confidently at the time, I do remember vaguely thinking I should prep her on them over the christmas holidays, but didn't quite get round to it. She could probably do 2s 3s 5s and 10s reasonably reliably. We practised storywriting a bit - she had a good turn of phrase, good spelling and did have joined up writing by that stage, but struggled with the timing. I remember her saying after the exma that she hadn't had time to finish her story. But she had been a ferocious independent reader since around the time she turned 5, so that probably helped. I would imagine she was quite opinionated in the interview as well [wince].

I wouldn't tutor, tbh - at 7+ age they're not going to be teaching anything that you couldn't do yourself if you keep an eye on her progress throughout, make sure she's comfortably up to speed, supplement a bit if nec, and then do 30 mins or so of exam prep every day for the last few months (not that I was that organised). Kumon is a complete and utter waste of time for most children imo (BTDT and dropped out). For 11+ you will need to tutor, probably from around the beginning of Y5, just to make up for the difference in curriculum and expectations. But again, 30 mins a week with a bit of homework was all it took.

We didn't take the 7+ place up, in the end - I began to suspect I wasn't pushy and organised enough to be a CLSG parent. Dd still got offers from a range of state selective and private schools at 11+.

In answer to your questions, not in order. I went to look at the private schools when dd was in yr 1, if that is what you mean - or do you mean the state schools?

I told the school she was doing the tests and they were fine about it and very sweet when she got in, said they were sorry to lose her etc but wished her all the best.

In terms of preparation. Yes, your child does ideally need to have covered the exam syllabus - but since they all are pretty open about what the syllabus is you can do that yourself at home. As ltc said, a level 3 is quite easily achievable for an intelligent child, it's just the school, quite understandably, will have seen no need to cover all the bases two terms early. A lot of what dd did in the exam has come up at school this term - and she is grudgingly admitting she's happy she's done it already with mummy as she finds it easy now.

In temrs of starting prepping, I'd say not earlier than the summer of yr 1. If you start too early I think you'd drive yourself and your dd a bit nuts and the exam would start to assume too much importance to both of you. As I said, I did it in a rush because I only realised late in the day what was required and it worked out fine, with far more stress to me than to dd. Dd is also dyspraxic, her handwriting and spelling are atrocious. I thought this was where she'd fall down but the school said they took "disabiltiies" into account and they must have done, which made me very happy as I know they'll take her difficulties seriously when she finally goes there (whether she likes it or not).

As for parents' backgrounds - all they knew about us was our names and occupations from the forms we filled in. But the fact is, if you are putting your dd in for these schools from a dodgy primary school they are going to be pretty sure you're educated, middle-class types. They certainly wouldn't judge you for chosing a dodgy primary - as I said, I think it can work to an advantage and give you a slight edge over the over-prepped children. Not that I would deliberately chose a dodgy primary for that reason, just like I wouldn't chose a dire comp on the basis it might give my dcs the Oxbridge edge!

My ds has just been offered places at three very selective London day schools at 7+. As others have said, they are clearly looking for potential rather than acquired knowledge.

At one school, they interviewed the boys in pairs and asked them some mental maths questions. The interviewer actually asked boys which times tables they knew and then asked them a question accordingly. My ds was in with a boy who knew most of his times tables so he was asked a question from the 11 times table. My ds only knew 2, 3, 5 and 10 so he was asked a question from the 3 times table. No problem that he didn't know the others.

There was a past paper on one of the websites so I made sure that he could do addition and subtraction, basic multiplication and division, telling the time, money, "wordy" problems, shapes and knew what basic fractions looked like. On the English side, I made sure that he was aware of a basic story structure, (beginning, middle and end), that he knew to put in wow words even if he couldn't spell them, that he used capital letters and full stops and that he knew to answers questions in full sentences.

The interviews were very straight forward. Generally, read a short passage out loud and answer some questions on it, few mental maths questions and a chat about football (in ds's case).

Ds is quite shy and didn't find any of the assessments or interviews stressful in any way. Everyone was lovely. They feed them kit kats and doughnuts so the kids come out thinking that they have had a great time.

They didn't interview the parents.

Thank you all so much - I'm very relieved to read your posts.

Lovingthecoast - I believe attending the nursery gives DD 2 measly points towards getting a place at primary level! The main plus we have in our favour towards getting her into there is that I can almost see the gate from our house. If she doesn't get a place then I won't be devastasted, it will just be a PITA as we'll have to travel further... in any case we will probably put the really, really good primary down as our first choice just in case Zeus decides to smile upon us.

The private nursery she is currently at will pick up children from the state nursery and look after them after school and in the holidays so it would be a nice transition for her from one 'school' to another even if she doesn't end up there for primary school.

One of the reasons that we are thinking 7+ would be better for her is that it is more of a test of potential than pure academics, and it's great to know that the schools will take what they have been taught into account.

I really want DD to see the whole thing as fun - I certainly don't want her to worry about results or anything.

areyoutheregoditsmemargaret - yes, I meant going to look at the private schools. The state primaries I shall probably go and look at in May as I have to fill in the applications in the autumn IIRC for a Sept '13 entry. Since she won't be sitting the 7+ until Autumn '15, I presume that I should go and look around in 2014 sometime?

Now I need to get up to speed on all the wretched year things (When I went to school we had 6th forms and the upper fourth etc - I have never managed to grasp the whole Y9 thing!) and what levels and key stages mean...

Bit worried about the joined-up writing - I STILL haven't mastered that one myself...

Many, many thanks, I feel a lot less anxious.

Glad you are reassured, OP. She is only 2, so relax for now - though I totally understand why you're worried your first choice of school might impact on where you want her to go eventually. No need to get a grip on levels, key stages etc either when she goes into reception it will all just make sense (well sort of, I still find a lot of the jargon incomprehensible). You don't need to look around the schools until the beginning of yr 1 - (2nd year at school). I would say until spring term of yr 1, you really have no idea if your child is a contender or not, as reception is largely play based ( a good thing imo) and the main thing to conquer there is basic reading skills.

he other thing I'd add is dd is an intelligent child but by no means a genius, I think the hype about "getting in" to these schools is just that - hype. Now go and enjoy the next four years!

BTW if you are looking at some schools with pre-preps, even if you are too late for a 3+ place in Sept, it might be worth asking about occassional vacancies. Most schools (but not all) will take children at times other than "official" entry points if there is a vacancy. Many of the preps/pre-preps in central London often have vacancies as international children regularly come and go.

I'm surprised about the nursery attendance giving you point towards getting a place in reception. In nearly 20yrs of teaching across many LEAs I have never heard of this and, in fact, thought it was it was illegal for a state school to do this as it blatantly discriminates against working parents because state nurseries cannot offer the 'childcare' hours they need. I'm very interested in how your LEA justify this unless they have some dispensation from government to encourage state nursery attendance.

I agree re the hype. It is competitive but the hype is to convince you that there are hundreds of other children so much brighter and better academically than yours. IME, happy, bright children working at level3 have a very good chance of securing a place at a good selective prep school.

Could it be because it is a CofE primary? I was suprised I get the 2 points as well, but seeing as going to just about any church in the British Isles gives you 6 points or so I won't complain!

The hype is scary - I know for me a lot also stems from seeing what my sister's 2 kids (6 and 8) were doing at Primary School and our getting our old books out and comparing it with what we were studying at the same age at a very competitive academic prep school. When you then hear that parents are tutoring on top of a prep-school education... yikes!

I want my child to enjoy being a young child and not be 'working' all the time, but then you feel that if you didn't do everything and they didn't get a place that you have somehow let them down. So hearing that other parents have not tutored to the nth degree and their DCs have still been awarded places coming from the state sector takes a lot of that anxiety away and makes me feel more that if she has 'it' then she will get in and if she doesn't get in then it probably wouldn't have been right for her anyway.

Maybe I'm being unfair, but I find it very worrying to look at a school's website and find huge numbers of spelling mistakes and grammatical errors. I'll happily overlook the odd typo, but poor copy on every page makes me feel rather sick. A pdf advertising a teaching role labelled as 'Job Discription' for example, hardly instills much faith.

I've been reading through Ofsted reports and was wondering if anyone knows how the gradings are awarded.

The schools in the area where we live tend to have around 50% of the students having English as a second-languages, the majority of students arrive with skills below the national average and fewer students than average reach L3 at KS1 or L5 at KS2 in English and Maths. They nearly all state that there are significant problems with attendance and high numbers of students with emotional/behavioural issues.

Am I correct in assuming that an Outstanding for one of these schools does not mean that they are necessarily on a par with a school in another area that does not have any of these potential issues but just that they have done better than expected?

I'm guessing that it's much easier for a school with 100% of students having mother-tongue English to reach the desired levels in the Key Stages and so they may have much better results and yet a lower Ofsted grading?

Constantly cooking, we aren't looking at pre-preps as there are none close enough to where we live considering that we both work and rely on public transport.

Pyrrah: my son is at an Ofsted Outstanding school where many children are from a socially disadvantaged/non English speaking background. It is a very sweet school, but I am aghast at the pace of learning. We are in the middle of the Spring term and my son's class learns a letter a WEEK. My son is on Level Four reading books at home, but only because I have been teaching him myself. No effort is made to accommodate him or differentiate the lessons. He just sits there and does the Letter M from Monday to Friday. The 'Outstanding' reflects the fact that by year two the children achieve average national results in the SATs despite largely coming from a below average starting point.

As I guessed then... so should I be really worried about a school with all the above that then manages to score a 'Satisfactory'? Every Ofsted report for schools round us says they are good with SEN, but unable to cater for able children.

DD at 2.9 can count to 30 and knows the alphabet and can recognise letter and numbers most of the time. I will be very suprised if she can't read before Sept '13.

My biggest nightmare is her getting bored and I can't see how that can fail to happen if they spend a week on one letter!

What do you do to try and keep your son motivated while he is at school? Have you spoken to the school and have they been helpful or just regarded you as a pushy mother?

I will add a slightly more negative note. We had our son sit one 7+ exam this year with pretty minimal tutoring (about 6 to 8 weeks with a tutor to brush up on the VR which is not done at his school at all). He is at a state school with a satisfactory rating. While I think the teaching at the school in his classes so far is very good, due to testing results in the upper years, the school's OFSTED is pretty low. Now he is very bright boy on the maths and rational side, with very good reading and comprehension skills and I think just reasonable writing skills.
We had decided to be relaxed about the 7+. Having done that now, I regret it entirely. The competition (especially for boys in our area, where there are no good state options) was so hard. While they do test for potential and he passed the exam, they are also looking for personality type. In my opinion, having a very bright boy who is quite shy and slow to warm up, group interviews don't provide the only way of testing potential. Boys who are quick to grow comfortable in a group and to put themselves forward can sparkle. Boys who may be slow to open up initially but would be very active participants after a week or two of class have very little chance of passing that interview.
I felt pretty bruised after the whole ordeal especially when it comes down to you feeling as if your child has been judged on their personality.
I know really bright kids who pass and get in and I have know very bright kids who didn't make the 7+ at all. The problem is if there are only 40 slots and 160 kids trying to get in (and most of those kids are top of their own class and very bright) there will be 120 very bright kids who still don't get in.

I don't know how much things would have been different had we been at another state school. Maybe very little. There is a very strong difference in the curriculum between the state and indy's and that has an impact on what areas you might have to work to bring up to speed. But I can't say I found the 7+ to be as manageable as I hoped.

It is so tough to know .. I think that is why so parents find this 7+ and 8+ stuff so difficult. Sometimes it depends on how your kid feels on the day, what the children in his group are like, what the personality of the examiner is and how they connect with your child. I think the thing to remember is that it is a bit of numbers game and some luck in addition to how well your child does on the day.

I was upfront with my school about going for the 7+ (they will find out because you will have to pull them out for interviews or tours and potentially depending on the school may have to provide an assessment of your child). They were very relaxed and understanding about it. I kept it very low key with my son which now I am very glad because when he did not get in we had not built into a devastating loss. I simply explained that there were not enough places at the school next year. I think we are going for the 8+ with the hope of maturity working in our favour in terms of the interview but I go into this process with a more cynical and perhaps more bruised take on the whole thing. It is truly, truly a disheartening experience to have your child that you see so full of potential be rejected.

I had heard that a lot of schools look for a mix of confident extroverts and quieter shyer children at the assessments so I think it can go either way depending on who else is applying. It is such a numbers game.

DD and the word shy wouldn't appear in the same sentence - but she is ultra-bossy and that is something I hope is tamed a little bit before she gets to school. I cannot believe that a school could really want a room full of extroverts - the staff would have nervous breakdowns!

I think there is also a big difference between boys and girls - I'm one of 3 girls and 1 boy and I remember my parents thinking that they probably needed to look at special schools for my brother as he wasn't very bright... he's now a very successful solicitor with an MA! They were just used to ultra-competitive girls who were manipulative and crafty and attention-seeking and faced with a child who preferred to spend his time building lego cars and playing with playmobile quietly in his bedroom they were a bit flummoxed!

I remember my mother advising a friend on children's parties and told her that you needed lots of games for little girls but to watch out as they all cheat, and pinch each other when your back is turned. For boys don't bother with games as they'd rather roll around on the floor fighting each other - but put out some lego/starwars figures for the quiet ones.

Then there is always the birthdate dilemma - I'm an August birthday and know what that means, therefore I deliberately tried for a Spring baby and we'd agree to take a TTC break to avoid a July/August baby. DD was born in May.

I think it's great that the boys schools do an 8+ entry as well - seems like your son should have a great chance of getting in, best of luck to you!

The saddest thing is that we are all paying a fortune for the government to supply all our kids with a good education and they are failing so badly in many areas of the country that a lot of us are willing to make huge sacrifices and go through years of stress and angst to try to find a better option. And I count myself lucky that we can even think of doing so.

Turniphead: Your school would not need to know until towards the end of this September that your DS was going to sit the 7+. They would most definitely need to know then as the prospective schools will be sending requests for a Headmaster report on your son in December.

If your are going to try for the tier of prep schools which Colet is in, please understand that this tier of school is very competitive, with the demand for places seemingly increasing every year. Yes, they are looking for "potential", but what exactly does that mean? It means getting one of the top scores on the exam, then performing in the top half during the subsequent interviews (Kings has a different admissions set-up). If your son is shy, there are two parts to the interview - one a group activity, and another being a one-on-one interview. Additionally, they take seriously the Headmaster report of his current school. A shy boy who shines during the on-on-one and has a glowing, substantiated Headmaster report should be fine.

In terms of the level of independents compared to state schools, the areas where they are ahead (maths and english) are the exact areas which are tested. Additionally, most pre-preps which have a significant portion exiting at 7+ and 8+ will prepare the boys for exams with exam techniques, verbal and non-verbal reasoning practice, multiple mock exams, and ensuring that all of the KS1 curriculum (for 7+) has been well covered by October prior to the exam. They also have practice interviews, and have huge homework packets which go out the summer beforehand and during holidays to keep the pace up. Nothing to be frightened by, as you can do the same at home - but you do need to know who you are up against.

Good luck! I went through the 8+ this year with DS1 and am very glad it is over.

Forgot to mention, that the level difference between 7+ and 8+ is huge, and that the schools expect much more of the boys taking the exams than are currently at the school! Something to keep in mind.

What happens if a school requests a report on your child and the local primary school has either had their nose put out of joint because you are planning on transferring to the indie sector or if they haven't faced this scenario before? The headmasters/mistresses at prep schools are experts at the written reports.

Hopefully no headteacher is unprofessional enough to try and scupper things - but some people have very definite political views on the whole state/private education thing and that could have a negative effect even subconciously... or is this a completely ridiculous worry?

Btw, I am not wanting to insult any primary school teacher or head - who are often struggling against the odds, especially in areas like mine. Both DH and I are/were school governors in our Borough so we have a good understanding of many of the issues - the school I was a governor at has the most incredible headmistress and yet the school still doesn't achieve 50% getting A-C in 5 GCSEs including English and Maths.

I wouldn't worry too much. The London selective schools are meritocracies: they want talent and potential and aren't at all precious about where it comes from. IME they do make allowances both at exam and interview stage for the different educational experience that children will have had, and I'm sure they make allowances for variations in the HT's report. If you were applying to one of the very socially and financially exclusive schools in some of the sloanier parts of London, then coming from a school that wasn't on their radar, or having a head who wouldn't play the game, might be a problem. But all the schools you mention have a good-sized intake from state schools, and know how the system works.

The HT at my dd's school was virulently anti-private schools, and in fact anti selective secondary schools of any type. I asked CSLG if he had written a reference when dd did 7+, and apparently he had (they did say in the talk that occasionally state school heads refuse, and candidates won't be disadvantaged if that is the case). I didn't ask what it said, but I can't imagine it was particularly helpful or effusive. Ditto when dd did 11+ - obviously the state schools aren't allowed to ask for references, but the private schools do. Despite what must have been at best a lacklustre reference from the primary HT (he told us we were hothousing her and should send her to the same comprehensive that all the other kids went to), she was offered places at all the schools we applied to, as well as one scholarship and one exhibition offered.

Fret not.

I have to declare an interest inasmuch as having done the London 7+ and 11+ circuit with our oldest child, we in fact stayed with state schools all the way through for her and for her siblings, and have never regretted it.

If you really want to go to one of those honeypot private selectives, and the money is not a massive problem, then fair enough. But bear in mind that the schools do have a vested interest in retaining their mystique and talking up how oversubscribed they are and how hard it is to get in. There are plenty of kids in ordinary state schools who get just as good grades as the top performers in the London selectives, without anything like as much hype.

Assuming you don't pick a failing sink school with demoralised teachers, if your dc are reasonably bright, and are supported at home, and you keep a bit of an eye on what's going on, maybe with some strategic tutoring in the run up to public exams, it probably won't make that much difference to the final outcome.

Just a thought.