What is the general approach to spelling in literacy in state primaries? I am concerned about spelling standards being too relaxed.

[exrebel]

Well, does anyone has any views/experience/knowledge to share as a teacher or mum about current educational approach to literacy and spelling expectations/standards in state primaries? I would like to be more informed and I would like to know what other mums/teachers experiences are in this regards, where the debate is at.

My daughter is in year 4 and doing well (she is 3b in literacy), but I am a bit worried by her attitude to spelling when writing reports, stories or sentences for literacy homework. Her attitude is that spelling in literacy is not important when doing literacy work (because the teacher doesn't mind she has concluded) and I observed that she far too often still spells common words wrong due to lack of effort or just forgetting what she once knew (she spells them correctly when challenged on many - but not all - occasions).

What she does in free writing is not focussing on the spelling of the words, but has a tendency to spell 'as it sounds'. Of course I don't expect her to spell new or difficult words correctly as English is not a phonetic language (Italian is my first language so it is easier to spell for children) and I know that it can take years for young people to master English spelling. But words that I know she can spell or she should be able to spell, are far too often spelled as they sound.

When supervising homework, I do make sure I teach her how to spell new words she wants to use and also I correct her other spelling. I stress the importance of spelling correctly (not just in preparing for spelling tests) and I tell her that she should try to apply what she has learned to spell in free writing.

I spoke to the teacher and looked for more information and it seems that at this stage in learning the approach is not to correct spelling mistakes in writing as it would discourage children. The teacher actually said that in KS2 SATs, spelling is assessed separately in a separate spelling test rather than in the writing test where spelling mistakes are not taken into account when marking. It looks to me this is reflected in how they teach spelling in the school, which is a separate activity for writing. Teaching spelling includes learning 10 tricky words a week for a weekly test, but words are not tested in sentences/context and they don't do dictation exercises to monitor levels and retention of previous words learned. When my daughter comes across these words in free writing, I notice that she does not recollect them from the spelling homework/test, so this doesn't seem to be a very efficient way to teach spelling.

I think that literacy teaching should push children a bit more and link writing and spelling more without too much fear of demoralising the kids. I think they can learn to do both. Try to do this at home is hard obviously because it is really hard to persuade my daughter when the approach in school is different. It is hard work to be a parent. What are other mumsnetters thoughts?

Watching with interest. My dd is only in Reception but I am keen for her to learn to spell properly from the start. From what I have heard there is a lot of emphasis on being creative and getting children to write and not worry too much about how they spell words. I think this is wrong. I learnt to spell by 'sight' ie I memorised the correct spelling (admittedly in German which is phonetic). If a child has a go and is praised for the effort but not corrected they may simply memorise their own way of spelling even simple words. I think you are doing the right thing to correct her and to remind her that spelling is important.

From everything I read and see, I think there is a tension between getting children to write with accurate spelling and grammar and getting children to put a lot of thoughts down on paper! It's a big ask when children are just starting out to get them to use correct spelling and grammar and to write something interesting and reasonably long.

How much incorrect spelling is overlooked when children are free writing depends on individual schools and teachers. It is never any harm, IMVHO, to go through your children's exercise books, note down all the words they spell incorrectly, see whether any patterns emerge and then, when you have quiet moment, go through the words they spell incorrectly with them.

I have my DD's English exercise books since the beginning of the year and am preparing a little list of words for her own personal spelling test during half-term. She has been working, independently of school, on the correct spelling of past participles.

I think there is a problem that children can not see a difference between a rough draft of a story / writing and the final draft.

In a rough draft spellings should be secondary in order to get the flow of the written piece. However, the children should then produce a final draft after they have corrected their spelling and grammar on the rough draft.

Due to classroom time restraints this does not appear to happen in dd's class and so she assumes the first piece she writes is the final draft.

Fortunately for her she is a very good at spelling.

Yes, you are right about the drafting and then not proceeding to a corrected final version.

I am never sure what to do with my ds spelling [year2] which means I tend to do nothing.
For home work I feel I should leave his 'mistakes' -and there is certainly only one draft - so the teacher can see it is his work and hopefully offer guidance.
I noticed in a story he wrote recently 3x different but phonetically plausible spellings of dinosaur! He does that often with words.

There is a fine line between spelling correctly and encouraging good writing. Unfortunately I've seen both sides: perfectionists who rub out tonnes, write hardly anything and spend all their time in a dictionary and those who write really well (& get level 5) but can't spell. Obviously those are the two extremes and there are a number of children who find the middle ground. As a teacher if I see a word that should be spelt correctly I point it out and ask the child to check it. We also identify two spellings in each piece of writing and the children have to write it correctly three times.

This is something that bothrs me too, OP.

Just to add an interesting note. Someone I know who is doing a PGCE Primary was told in a university lecture last week that it was ok not to correct all grammar and spelling mistakes in a piece of work so as not to be overly critical on a child!!! At KS2 too! Shocking.

That's not shocking wellies. Correcting every single mistake could be really disheartening for a child who was struggling. A good teacher (imo) would correct repeated errors so that the child can learn not to make them again. If a child was getting most words right, then it would be fine to correct any errors.

Generally though I think spelling is not prioritised these days (and nor is grammar).

I'd imagine that in the example from SunflowersSmile where her ds wrote 3 versions of dinosaur that the class teacher would highlight that word as needing to be corrected and learnt.

interesting posts thank you for these replies, I will be reflecting about how I am approaching spelling with my daughter during homework. It causes some arguments sometimes (well every time in the last month ) and I think it is because yes I might be too pushy on this issue but also she is too relaxed due to class approach. I thought of letting her do drafts (the school does not do this) without minding the spelling and then a copy with focus on spelling and grammar. Not sure it is a good idea though, I can see her face dropping if asked to do something TWICE! so maybe not.

By the way, she had to do some creative writing for a competition over half term and her argument for not being precise with the spelling was that they are going to write their stories in Word anyway! she shouldn't be relying on Word's spell checker just yet? cheeky!!!

In my class it depends what I am assessing in the piece of writing which is related to the teaching focus. So I would not correct spelling if the focus was the use of effective sentence openers or using a variety of sentence structures. I would use the evidence from the writing across the class to plan the next spelling session. Then after that review the piece of writing thinking about that spelling rule.

I try to encourage 'ambitious vocabulary' when the children are writing. I would rather see a 'better' word spelt incorrectly than the constant use of safe words like 'nice', 'happy', 'good', etc. due to the child being scared to make a spelling mistake with a more ambitious word.

As with everything in teaching, it's a balance.

stargirl1701 very useful insight! Thanks, I agree on the ambitious vocabulary and the fine line. It makes sense.

But at what stage of their education are children expected to produce work without spelling mistakes? is precise spelling something that educators expect average ability children to achieve at some stage in the future? Or what?

I have worked with statemented students at secondary level, they tended to be in lower ability classes (working at primary level) and it was very common for students to get 100% in spelling tests week after week but to spell 60-70% of the words in a piece of writing incorrectly because the two tasks (writing and spelling/grammar) had become totally disassociated. The students saw them as two completely separate fields, like counting and naming colours for example, and that only one needed to be focused on at a time, depending on the task.

Oh, our (the teacher and TA's) approach was to always correct the 100 most common words then move on to the second 100 most common words and so on... depending on the student's level.

I insist that pieces going beyond the school be of final draft standards. This type of writing is usually a letter. Each child works with a peer supporter to check through grammar, spelling, punctuation and then I check it. I tell the children that they will be judged on these things by people outside school and, particularly when job hunting, it is a key skill. I teach upper primary school.

A lot of schools have got rid of spelling tests in favour of teaching spelling regularly in the class precisely because the children weren't using them in their work. It would be very unusual to find a school which didn't teach spelling (at all ages) and didn't work on editing and improving their work. Also I think you'll find grammar is a focus of a lot of schools as the children will never get level 4+ if it isn't as there is a lot of weighting in the marking towards correct grammar. Obviously all schools are different!

I have a DD in Yr 6 and she has a draft book and a 'best' book for writing - she is expected to draft out a rough and then write it out in her best, and every spelling error is most certainly picked up on. I think it's a good way of working and it reflects what happens in real life too. She will be doing her KS2 SATs this year and that probably has something to do with it, but she is being set tough standards - as she should be.

My DD in Yr4 is not being pushed so stringently, but she is one of those who has found the balance between good spelling and grammar and producing good content in the right quantity - she is ably supported in this by her teacher, who encourages her desire to get things right in every aspect of her work. She is in an ambitious school though - recent Academy convert and they really, really want that OFSTED outstanding. If it produces these kinds of standards then that's a good thing.

I feel that spelling phonetically is a big improvement on what children have done in the past. At KS3 I am finding that fewer children are just writing random letters in the hope that they will spell the word they want and without any understanding of the fact that letters represent the sounds in the words.

At least if they are thinking about the 'sounds' and how to spell them they are getting part of the way there.

I correct the words my Y2 class should be able to spell and accept phonetically plausible attempts for other words

This is one of my biggest bugbears as well. I appreciate the teachers want free flow, and ideas, and content but there doesnt seem to be at any point any input from teachers to correct spellings at all. The kids are supposed to read and correct their work (ha ha) but if they got it wrong in the first place they dont know it was wrong.

One of my children is an excellent speller, and gets very high marks in advanced tests. But you wouldnt think so in his written work. Basic words misspelt constantly. Never adds ed to plurals, just d, will misspell same word differently through his work. When questioned, he just says "teacher says its fine" What can I say.

When I have spoken to teachers they have said when the kids are older they will all be using computers and relying on spell checker so they dont bother teaching spellings now - it really annoys me.

So of course I am the big mean mum when I want my children to practice at home, which is a battle because our school doesnt see spelling matters.

Iamseeingstars I think (hope) these teachers are in the minority and that most of us teach spelling every day in the classroom

Iamseeingstars "very high marks in advanced tests" WTF????

AFAIK my children in their state school have been taught very rigorous phonics from day 1 and they understand totally the rules of spelling in the bizarre language that is our mother tongue. I firmly believe that parents should buy a dictionary and look up unfamiliar words/spellings to benefit their children's education.

Iamnotinterested totally agree with you - my DDs are both very good readers, writers and spellers, but we make a point of discussing their use of vocabulary with them, and ours too. They often ask us what a word means, take it in and then use it in conversation and writing. They also ask us how words are spelled - we let them have a go at it and then work on reasoning our way towards the correct spelling. If they feel they have worked it out for themselves, it's more likely to stick.

I think taking an interest in words and language is key, once you realise that the bizarre language is a lot of fun to play with, you're away. (It's not my mother tongue by the way, so I'm particularly fussy about getting it right - I feel as if I have English 'on loan' and I'm responsible for treating it kindly.)

This is just a wild generalisation but I find it quite interesting that those of us whose first language is not English (like myself) are very keen for our children to learn to spell correctly. I just wish British teachers would see it the same way. It matters. I wonder if the approach is wrong if spelling lists don't translate into well written text. When I was at school we very frequently had a teacher read a short story which we had to write down. In other words, spelling in context. Is that done in UK schools? (My dd is in Reception, so all this is really new to me).