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Primary education

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What is a skills based curriculum?

292 replies

skewiff · 12/02/2012 20:50

Our primary school says one of its aims is to make the curriculum more skills based?

What does this mean?

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gaelicsheep · 13/02/2012 21:56

EBDTeacher - I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at in your post (probably just me!). Are you saying that skills are to be valued over and above knowledge (disagree) or are you saying that certain basic skills need to be acquired before knowledge can be accessed, either by teaching or by self-learning? I would context the school's view that History GCSE is a useless fact learning exercise. I didn't do it, but would have thought that it taught how to use and interpret sources, critical thinking, analytical skills, etc.?

I just simply don't understand how people can dismiss the history of civilisation and the knowledge built up over at least a millennium as "useless"!

brdgrl · 13/02/2012 22:15

I have rarely been so depressed as I am reading this thread. How dare anybody make the judgment that x child won't need x knowledge because of the job it is assumed they will do? Such a backward step and so judgmental! "Keep the peasants in their place" is what that argument says, although I suspect the people making it don't realise this.
Agreed, gaelicsheep.

History a useless fact learning exercise...well. What can one even say about that? It is absolutely mind-boggling. Angry

(On a separate but, I think, related point...My SD didn't do History GCSE, so she will simply never be taught about WW II - they got as far as WW I in her last year of history, and only the students doing the GCSE will go past that...incredible...but I suppose there are those who will say there is no reason for children to learn any facts about WW II, as they'd only need that information to show off or win a pub quiz...And after all, they did a unit on 'tolerance' where they learned how to present their [heavily guided by the teacher] opinions via a multi-media presentation, so why should they waste time learning any concrete facts about the Holocaust? More important that we can say she's learnt presentation skills that might serve her in a job someday, than that we make sure she has anything to present, or has facts at her disposal to actually understand the most formative events of the twentieth century and why they happened...)

EBDteacher · 13/02/2012 22:24

Yes I think skills are more important than factual knowledge. I think contexts are a medium via which you hone skills.

I can remember who said it up the thread what is important is being able to read, not having read a particular book. Spot on. Once I have mastered the skill of reading I can read any book I wish or need to. I could get the knowledge from a particular book by someone reading it to me but unless they taught me to read for myself I could not further my knowledge on that subject or independently learn anything else.

Yes it is more important that children learn how to learn than exactly what they learn. By default they will learn 'content' in the course of learning how to learn, but I don't think it particularly matters what.

gaelicsheep · 13/02/2012 22:28

"what is important is being able to read, not having read a particular book."

Except that if you haven't read a particular book you will not recognise a reference to it when you read something else, hence may well miss the whole point of something key. You won't know to go and read that book to understand the context because, having not read it, you won't know where the reference has come from. See?

"By default they will learn 'content' in the course of learning how to learn, but I don't think it particularly matters what."

Oh dear God. Are you a teacher? No wonder my DS's school is so crap.

EBDteacher · 13/02/2012 22:32

brdgrl who are you to say exactly which 'facts' are important? No child can learn every event in history, every historical and modern detail of science, the name of every Nobel Laureate, every word of Shakespere (and why Shakespere rather than Wilde anyway...).

Do you think you are well placed to question one of the most prestigious educational establishments in the country on their view of History GCSE?

Why did this thread become about history anyway?

beatricequimby · 13/02/2012 22:34

I think most teachers (and parents) believe learning should be about both skills and knowledge. Surely it is just a question of the right balance between the two and of the way knowledge is acquired. Nobody I know teaching the Battle of Hastings would just impart knowledge, we would all be looking at the Bayeaux Tapestry and other sources, taking them to the computer room and trying to get them to do more than cut and paste etc.

I am interested in this thread because so many of you have used examples from History teaching. As a History teacher, it is very clear to me that children enjoy finding out about what happened in the past. They like the stories and this motivates them to learn the skills. And I do believe that all children need an understanding of some basic facts about History eg if you leave school not knowing that Britain had an Empire, then how do you understand the society we live in?

EBDteacher · 13/02/2012 22:36

gaelicsheep you have read and memorised every single book written so far then? In order that when you read a new book that references an earlier one you will remember?

I'm sorry, your argument does not make any sense at all to me. I know you are not a teacher- I don't need to ask.

gaelicsheep · 13/02/2012 22:37

But you're saying that because no one can learn everything, then actually we shouldn't bother to teach anyone anything. There is surely a basic corpus of knowledge that it every child's birthright to inherit? I truly cannot believe what I am reading here.

To the teachers on this thread who subscribe to this lowest common denominator, soulless form of education, can I ask what inspired you to teach? Clearly it has nothing to do with fostering a love of learning, since facts are useless things that only serve a transitory purpose, so what was it?

gaelicsheep · 13/02/2012 22:39

Damned right I'm not a teacher. Wouldn't touch the "profession" with a barge pole after reading what I've read here. As far as I can see we should do away with the lot of you, give our kids a quick lesson in Google and be done with it. What are you for?

working9while5 · 13/02/2012 22:46

"However it is not necessary for a teacher to have the knowledge in detail ready to transmit directly to children - it is enough to know that it is possible to find out what Romans ate, not to be able to list that in detail."

You see, this doesn't make any sense to me. Why call it history, then? Surely if the teacher doesn't have the content knowledge or enthusiasm about the subject area, it's just "research skills"?

I particularly loathe this approach wrt English Lit - the idea that no one needs to read a whole novel/play/long poem when you can read an extract instead. Well, actually reading and retaining and understanding a novel in depth seems to me to be a much better basis for learning skills than bite-sized "analysis" aka taking to pieces something that is completely decontextualised and has the heart ripped out of it. Knowing something inside out, growing to love it, understanding it.. these are tremendously valuable when it comes to developing a love of literature. It's about more than the mechanics of "tone" or labelling "pathetic fallacy". The idea that textual analysis can be done on any old piece of literature without th need to access the whole plot or become acquainted with all the characters and how they interact seems crazy to me.

The fallacy of this approach was really highlighted to me when working with an extremely bright, severely dyslexic/language disordered student who really "got" Great Expectations. His approach to story and to character was so insightful and mature, yet because he struggled to "structure" his responses to include the technical buzz words, he got a D, despite demonstrating true knowledge and appreciation of the text at a far higher level than some of his "tick the boxes" peers who could reel off all the "techniques" being used. It seemed like regurgitation was what was at stake rather than "thinking skills". This student was thinking. Lots of the others weren't. The system disproportionately rewarded them for demonstrating "skills" that weren't really skills at all, just a rehash of what they'd been told to say about a text.

EBDteacher · 13/02/2012 22:53

That is not what I said at all. I'm saying that because no one can learn everything it doesn't matter which facts they learn at school.

What they must have is the ability to independently learn the knowledge they discover they do need later in life. We cannot possibly say for each individual what that is going to be.

My DH loves his subject and enjoys opening up it's wonders and possibilities to the new generation. However, he prefers cultivating their minds and opening up the wonders and possibilities of learning.

The kids I teach. I'd rather they became pro-social members of society than even knew who the current Queen of England is.

gaelicsheep · 13/02/2012 22:57

I do not send my DS to school to be taught a random collection of facts. I can do that myself perfectly well from home. The reason I send him to school is because I assume, wrongly, that he is being taught a body of core knowledge that is being built up and built on in a logical, structured way.

Actually I should rephrase that paragraph in the past tense (I can do that without Googling how to). After having DS in school for nearly a year in Scotland it is now abundantly clear to me that school will do none of the things I mentioned. It is, in fact, a useless waste of his time. Poor kid.

beatricequimby · 13/02/2012 22:58

working9while5 - great post. There is a big problem with examining skills. You end up spending ages teaching pupils the correct technique for answering each skills-based question, which is a complete waste of time (and incredibly boring). By the time the exam comes they know how to get full marks for each type of question but they make not really understand the source that they are supposed to be evaluating.

There was an interesting report on this recently by a History Working group in England (not sure of the name cos I am not in England). Their conclusion seemed to be that pupils cannot do any meaningful analysis of historical sources unless they know quite a lot about the topic. I would agree with that.

beatricequimby · 13/02/2012 23:02

Gaelic Sheep - I have read about your experiences with Curriculum for Excellence on other threads and agree that your school sounds poor.

However, Curriculum for Excellence is not being implemented in the same way in every school and there are still plenty of excellent schools and teachers in Scotland.

EBDteacher · 13/02/2012 23:03

Home ed then gaelicsheep so you can teach him the facts that you perceive to be important. End of the problem. I'm sure you've got a copy of Children's Britannica somewhere, you won't need anything else.

gaelicsheep · 13/02/2012 23:06

It is being seriously considered believe me. He is in school purely for the social experience, as we are very rural. I do not rate the school at all and I now believe it is actively doing harm.

BeatriceQuimby - I am sure there are much better examples in Scotland than I've experienced. But the fact remains that IMO, and that of many other parents I've spoken to, CfE is a total nonsense.

gaelicsheep · 13/02/2012 23:22

No actually, that's not good enough. We shouldn't be forced into doing teacher's jobs for them while also paying handsomely for their services through our taxes.

What I want to know is this? How are these trendy education theories being married with the continued experience of universities who are having to accept students who lack the necessary grounding for advanced study? Are academics consulted on the primary and secondary curricula? How do you propose a young person goes about studying physics at a higher level, for example, when the study of Newton's laws of motion wasn't one of the items chosen in their teacher's pick n mix?

working9while5 · 13/02/2012 23:22

EBD teacher, learning to be prosocial involves being able to access the general knowledge of mainstream society too. Not knowing the basics of how the world operates outside of a narrow, often dysfunctional social context (parents in prison, DV, poverty) etc can be incredibly damaging. The common currency of everyday conversation involves a lot of facts - whether it's X factor or the Queen of England is not always relevant, but it can be. A lot of humour is very verbal and makes references to all sorts of topical info - this year a lot of it will be about the Diamond Jubilee. When students don't know and can't access these facts, they are excluded from conversations. This happens in lessons, too. You can't have a conversation without having something to say, and to have something to say, you have to have access to these facts.

I work with students who have severe language and communication problems and to be honest, I think a "skills based" curriculum absolutely does them no favours. I need them to become confident pro-social members of society too, but I have a recurring issue when it comes to various aspects of the curriculum and how they are asked to deploy "skills" when they don't have the basic fundamentals to allow them to retain the necessary knowledge to make those skills relevant or generalisable. I would far rather that the facts of history were used to enable them to have conversations about past and present and to think about how humans change over time than to demonstrate "skills" such as "plotting a timeline" without really understanding it in any way that is meaningful or relevant to them.

Wrt to the Speaking and Listening curriculum which is cross-curricular, there is a constant push to make them "talk for purpose" and "speak for an audience" and employ all these nonsensical "communication skills" ahead of having a basic bank of knowledge and capability to have a normal conversation on their own terms. Some of the kids I work with don't have basic vocabulary to describe ordering food in a restaurant, let alone do it independently.. and they need this knowledge in order to develop the skill of being able to interact in these social situations. Yet the "speaking and listening" experiences they access at school involve listening to peers reading aloud with volume/intonation etc, reading text they don't understand or engage with, they nod when they are told they are being assessed as they know this gets extra points. They don't have a clue what's being said, but hey, they know the reader should speak a bit louder because the teacher wrote that on the board. It makes me cringe.

Similarly, I see a lot of meaningless "social skills" stuff being done with kids with limited or impoverished language (which as you know, applies to 70% and upwards of the EBD population) when the gaps that they are experiencing really reflect limited language to describe or mediate experience. It doesn't make one whit of difference if you know that it is nice to greet people and to take turns in conversation if every time someone speaks to you, you haven't a notion what they are saying and then feel like you want to thump them yet don't even understand that you are responsible for that. I've recently done a lot of work with a young offender on what "by accident" really means. He thought that because he rarely went into a situation wanting to be violent that it wasn't his fault when he became violent, because his intentions were good at the outset. We established that he is often violent when he doesn't understand what people are talking about, or when conversation goes above him which he perceives as people "dissing him". There is no prosocial skill that will replace an increase in ability to understand general conversation and life and giving kids meaningful experiences and broadening their general knowledge base can be more important for many than talking about the "skills" you need in some abstract, meaningless way.

gaelicsheep · 13/02/2012 23:35

OK, FWIW here is my theory:

The look and say reading method appears to work because most children have parents who care if they learn to read, and therefore fill in the gaps and lo and behold their children learn to read. Educationalists think it works. Never mind the 20% who never get it - they're from deprived backgrounds so c'est la vie.

Ditto to skills-based curriculum. Some kids will survive because their parents will pick up the slack and their kids will not grow up as ignoramuses. Others won't, but hey they're from deprived backgrounds and we're lucky if they can write their name by the time they leave school so never mind.

Depressed.com

EBDteacher · 13/02/2012 23:43

I don't disagree with what you say working.

Our kids have daily SALT, OT, WM training and a very, very sophisticated PSHCE programme developed in conjunction with and being evaluated by a collaboration of some of the leading academics in the field.

We have had to work hard with the LA to agree a much slimmed down version of the NC to sit along side all that because there just isn't time to do it all, and they can't access a lot of it yet anyway.

It is absolutely right that they should be differentiated for and taught in a way that meets their needs.

So no, I am not pleased to listen to Gove saying he is going force every child into even more of a one size fits all, sit down, shut up and learn your dates type model.

brdgrl · 13/02/2012 23:46

Do you think you are well placed to question one of the most prestigious educational establishments in the country on their view of History GCSE?

Erm, yes, actually, I do. Do you have a reason to believe that I am not? Or is part of your teaching philosophy that parents (and fellow educators, incidentally) are not entitled to question the views of (ahem) "prestigious educational establishments"?

Your own views are actually pretty ridiculous. And you have become nasty and arrogant with your return to this thread. I wonder why.

brdgrl · 13/02/2012 23:48

And the idea that we should shut up and homeschool our children, rather than insist on the publicly funded education to which they are entitled? More elitist bullcrap.

brdgrl · 13/02/2012 23:51

working, what excellent posts. Thank you.

mrz · 14/02/2012 08:05

I think many of the excellent points being raised here are issues that are more prevalent in secondary schools than in primary and I agree that children should read whole books not dip into carefully selected extracts and in history everyone should have access to the whole curriculum (but even then it would be impossible to study every period in history even if it was limited to a study of English history Hmm ) children simply don't spend that many years in education.
Facts are fun but which is more important knowing that the Battle of Hastings too place on 14th October 1066 or knowing why William invaded and why he was able to defeat Harold? If you go onto study history at a higher level you need to consider the reliability of your sources so isn't that a good skill for children to acquire early... ie don't believe everything you read on the internet ...

cheltenmum · 14/02/2012 08:58

The fallacy of this approach was really highlighted to me when working with an extremely bright, severely dyslexic/language disordered student who really "got" Great Expectations. His approach to story and to character was so insightful and mature, yet because he struggled to "structure" his responses to include the technical buzz words, he got a D, despite demonstrating true knowledge and appreciation of the text at a far higher level than some of his "tick the boxes" peers who could reel off all the "techniques" being used

Absolutely agree with you about reading whole texts and about the example you quote above. The D grade for Great Expectations though is likely not the fault of the teacher but the Exam requirements which I agree are thoroughly depressing in their 'tick box' mark schemes. I haven't taught in the UK for quite a few years but I have children doing public exams now and am a bit flummoxed by the marking critieria.

I still don't see why some people are making such a distinction between skills and knowledge. In a good school they will go together. As has been pointed out, History skills cannot be properly taught free of context. If this is not happening then there is a problem with delivery, but this is a different problem.

The idea that you have to have read particular books in order to understand references is a bit worrying for most of us! Did I have to know about the Alhambra to understand references in "Little Women" or French or Latin for lots of books (including Harry Potter, for which include extensive knowledge of mythology)? Surely if children know how to find out what the references mean they will be better place to read a wider variety of books?