DD's yr 2 class is out of control

[fullofwoe]

Up until Yr 2 DD has been happy at school and getting on okay, she's young for her year but has friends and likes her teachers. The pupils have stayed in the same classes since reception. Right from reception there have been a few "characters" in her class, but one particularly troublesome one, who has always taken up a lot of time (probably most of the TA's time in year 1), I will refer to this child as X.

Autumn term, Yr 2, new teacher - lovely lady, dd adores her. I am going in to classroom as helper fairly often. Class is still a handful, a few more "characters" have joined in the fun with X. The have seen X gets taken to the side by TA - gets out of sitting still and doing any work, they have cottoned on that if they mess about they won't have to do any work either. When I go into school as a parent helper and the classroom is rowdy but ok. DD is ignoring disruptive pupil sat beside her, getting on with her work. She seems to be learning well. DD starts to have problems getting to sleep, a few things come out about school, playground issues and so on.

Spring term, I am not able to get into school as a helper as much this term. DDs sleep issues are getting worse, we have our ups and downs, a few more things come out about classroom. She's been told off for not sitting still, but says she had to sit still waiting for the teacher to sort out behaviour of some of the class; she got told off for not doing enough work, she had been sat there waiting for help while the teacher was dealing with child X and Y,Z. Minor things but they have really upset DD (she takes her position as teachers pet very seriously - I am very proud ). I have made a note of the things she's told me which worry me most. I manage to get into school for an hour and hear some readers. The class behaviour seems to be about the same to me. It's a challenge, but ok.

All through this lots of other parents have been muttering and complaining. Most of them have been in as a parent helper once or twice. I know they are going in to see the teacher, a few of them on a daily basis. There is a group of parents demanding that child X be excluded. I feel so sorry for the lovely teacher. I am worried about DD.

To try and get to the point: DDs sleep problems and worrying comments are on going, but with talking and me being very positive things stabilise, sleeping problems not getting any worse. I went in this week for an afternoon, the class TA is only there in the mornings, it was absolute mayhem. It has deteriorated massively.

I have known these kids since reception, previously well behaved, lovely kids have joined in with the misbehaviour, they can't even behave for registration, teacher is telling some quiet kids off for minor shuffling on the carpet whilst she is trying to get the disruptive kids to behave. Later then starts to ignore the disruptive kids (who are jumping about shouting like they are in a zoo), but still telling off others for minor things (the children getting told are sitting on the carpet waiting for the next bit of the lesson, it was heart breaking). I am trying to help get children to sit down and listen. Later in the lesson a child runs out of the classroom. Another child is put in the cloak room, he is out of teacher's sight, to the side, he stands in the classroom pulling faces at the other children and me whilst the teacher tries to teach the rest of the class on the carpet. I went in and told him to behave (I know I shouldn't as I'm only a parent helper - but how could I ignore?).

This teacher is using almost solely positive discipline. She does tell them off, but she's so gentle, they complete ignore her. I have to admire that she didn't lose her temper, never shouted. The disruptive pupils were about half the class. It's gone from year 1 - 3 pupils messing about, to this week - mayhem. On the occasions she did try to impose a sanction (they have a behaviour ladder, golden time, house points and a few other things recently introduced. I see some evidence she is being supported, the head of KS1 visited the class whilst I was there, everyone calmed down whilst she was in the class).

They have sats later this year. The children cannot learn in this chaos. The TA has long been completely occupied with crowd control. Now the teacher is too, the ones who want to learn are left to themselves.

This week I have found out that Child X is leaving the school (I assume this is a transfer, he is going to the school on the other side of town that's in special measures).

Thank you if you got this far down my post, to my questions:

I know I have to go in and complain. I feel absolutely terrible about doing it. The teacher is lovely, she's got to be close to a nervous break down (she is putting on a good front), she has completely lost control of the class. At no point in my visit did she have proper control. Can I say that to her?

Please tell me if you would complain in my shoes?

DH wants to go straight to the headteacher, I want to talk to the teacher first. Who's right?

I am after constructive ideas for what to say when I go in to speak to her?

I have my list of things DD has told me worry her. Mentioning all of these is my starting point.

I have to focus on the affect it is having on my child? I shouldn't mention how I feel about the other disruptive children, who are being massively let down?

Can anyone advise me how important are the sats this year?

I must resist the temptation to tell her that the class needs much firmer discipline. That is not for me to say?

I know she will say child X is leaving, it's all going to be all right now. He was the leader, but my visit has shown me there are 4 or 5 other children ready to take his place.

Apologies for the length, I needed to vent, I've been up since 4 am writing this, can't sleep.

I think you might like to ask for a meeting with the teacher and the Headteacher, to outline your concerns. I think if you show concern for the teacher, and ask about the school's solutions, then that puts you in a good light (not that it should matter - but I always feel that being constructive is the best guilt-free way to go).

Then you might leave them to implement their strategy and ask them to report back to you possibly via email in a week. Or two weeks.

I don't think SATs matter that much to be honest (personal view) at that age. It's the lack of learning that would worry me most. That and the horrible environment for the children.

I am in a similar situation with my ds's yr1 class, except that my ds is one of the disruptive ones (see my thread 'is it time to move the dcs to a private school?') One of his job share teachers has just resigned due to stress ill health. She has been off work for many weeks now and the other (less effective) teacher has been doing full time. The in-school behaviour has deteriorated considerably over these weeks resulting in lots of injuries.
In terms of what you should do now, I would recommend going to the class teacher and just telling her exactly the problems you're experiencing with your dd and the things dd tells you. At this stage I wouldn't talk about what you've observed as a helper. See what the teacher's response is. If you feel she has taken you seriously and comes up with some strategies to help, then great, give it a couple of weeks and see if there's an improvement.
If you don't get the response you want or if there's no improvement after you see her then go back to her saying your dd is still unhappy and could you make an appt to see her with the head too.

Thanks both. I will make the appointment. I will show concern, I am concerned for the children and the teacher, it must be a nightmare for her.

Pop - I have a DS in reception, and I can see I could easily be in your shoes soon. Some kids are harder to engage, not always boys but often. If it's not dealt with then it seems to spread. I will have a read of your thread.

The SATs part is a red herring - Y2 assessment is teacher assessment only, so they are being assessed right now and will have been since September. At some stage part of the assessment jigsaw will involve a test if they are working at level 2 or above, but it is only a small part. So if their learning is affected, it's a problem all the way through the year, not just at the end.

Making an appointment to talk to the Head is the right thing to do - they can assess the situation and take it from there.

Just to say that it may be that although X has 4 or 5 followers you may find that none of them are leaders, or they all want to be the leader and different issues arise.
I have seen the situation in a class (not mine, but one of the other classes) where one child being absent changed the behaviour of 6+ other children. Interestingly he suddenly settled down and was fine, but that was much older.

I haven't read all you post (it's a bit long) but at dds primary school they do rearrange classes at the end of every year to prevent this type of scenario happening. It makes sure that a child like X won't affect the dynamics of their class every year and that trouble makers are in different classes. HTH

Feenie - that is one less thing to worry about then, thanks.

DeWe - that is good to hear, I am crossing my fingers I find the same thing after half term - would be bliss.

Crazymum - they have been in the same class since reception, but I am going to ask that they are moved about next year if this continues.

Thanks all. Some other opinions/thoughts are helping me to feel more rational.

Year 2 teacher here - I imagine that teacher probably goes home and cries into a glass of wine each evening, how awful . If so, is it then only a matter of time before she's off with stress too?

The good news is that SATs don't matter a jot, but the previous poster is right in saying that it's not about the assessments... their learning throughout the year is being affected and that is unacceptable. Its also a horrible environment to have to sit in all day. Imagine if you had to work in an office environment like that - it would be pretty stressful and unpleasant.

I think firstly you are right to take your concerns to the teacher directly, and to focus on the concerns which your daughter has raised with you. It may be that once X leaves, things do calm down - when is he going? If they do, then fine, but if nothing improves within a week or two I would be going back in to meet the HT.

By improvements I mean that I would expect to see some form of reward/sanctions which are being pushed hard by the teacher and TA and which are WORKING. This might include children being removed from the classroom for "calm time", or missing playtime. I would also want to see some whole class PSHE work aimed at getting the children to pull together as a class "team" - the protagonists are of an age to be able to understand the effect of their behaviour on the others. I would also be interested in whether the parents of the protagonists have been called into school to address their childrens' behaviour (they may not want to tell you this).

If you are not convinced that the class teacher is regaining control (albeit slowly) then go to the HT and say the same. If there is still no improvement then its the governors, or I would look at removing my child.

Your DD could potentially be with this bunch until Y6, so better that it is addressed right now, I think.

HTH

Similar thing happened to us, one or two 'characters', bedlam in reception, slightly better in Year 1, but I didn't feel I could subject my dd, who used to get very stressed about the behaviour and others not conforming, to another year, so we changed schools, the result is a happy and completely different child!

On speaking to the head when I went to tell her we were going and the reasons, she actually apologised and admitted that the children 'ran riot, albeit safely', and they should have had more structure etc. etc. I always knew something was wrong, but didn't have the confidence to address it (she is our only child and I didn't really know what to expect from school!).

If I was in your position or mine again, I would have no hesitation that to go in and have a word with what you are actually seeing (mine was only what I heard from dd and other parents children).

It sounds like you have really thought it through and how to broach it, so best of luck, I am sure it will be no surprise to them and in fact may give the teacher some support and the head the ability to act.

P.S The head told me that they would be 'a lovely group by the time they got to Year 6'!!!! I told her it would be too late by then!!

It will be interesting to know how you get on, do let us know and best of luck.

Cupofbrownjoy I feel desperate for her, I would have been in complaining before if I didn't like her so much. I know at least 5 other mums who are complaining and I hate to add to it, but the current situation cannot continue. DD adores her too, and for the first term I thought that would be enough. I will go directly to her. I will list DDs and my concerns and try to say I don't think her sanctions are effective, (I don't think she follows through - she threatens staying in at break, but then lets them go out).

X's last day was Friday, fingers crossed for a calmer class next term!

Ktk9 how did your DD get on making friends at the new school? DD has a good bunch of friends, I am friendly with their mums. That would be my main reserervation with moving her. Ver glad to hear your DD is doing so well - there is hope!

I will update you all. Thank you so much everyone who replied. I feel stronger already!

If X has left I would see what happens in the next couple of weeks. I would expect the other bad behaviour to gradually lose momentum if this was sparked by him.

Hocus, I hope you are right. It was sparked by him initially in foundation/yr 1. Scary how it spread to previously well behaved children. I just hope it hasn't spread too far for her to pull it back. I hope she is going to toughen up enough.

Thanks for your post.

I was a teacher so have been on both sides. Sorry, but I think you are being a bit too nice here and unfortunately for Miss Lovely you have to stick up for your dd and not worry too much about hurting her feelings. Miss L is clearly not coping. X is leaving but she has already lost control of U,V,W,Y and Z so unless something is done then things wont get better next term. It's too late.

I would first ask for a meeting with Miss Lovely. Explain that dd likes her very much but is unhappy, distressed, not learning etc. Explain you are shocked that Miss Lovely seems to be being expected to cope with a class out of control and you feel more support needs to be put in to the class. That will pave your way to go to the head without appearing to be telling tales behind her back.

Then go to the head. Repeat again how lovely Miss L is. How dd likes her so much. But how dd is LEARNING NOTHING and how Miss Lovely needs more support. Head teachers have to care about learning. If the children are not learning then it's more important than if X is doing the funky chicken dance on the table. You can tell him/her what you saw going on in the class if you put it in the context of learning.

Don't say - X was doing the funky chicken all through number time and Miss Lovely let him out to play and had no control.
Do say -X was doing the funky chicken all through number time so none of the children could concentrate or hear what Miss Lovely was saying. She needs more support.
Don't say - dd is unhappy because she has to sit next to naughty Y
Do say - dd can't work because she has to sit next to naughty Y

Tough but true - some lovely people do not make good teachers. Miss Lovely needs support and strategies to cope with this class. Even the most well behaved and discsiplined of classes full of lovely children will fall to pieces within a term and a half of a having weak teacher. Miss Lovely may improve with support and time and she may not. But your dd shouldn't have to suffer while Miss Lovely gets her stuff together.

An awful lot of blame is being put on one child - but surely the big problem is that the teacher is so ineffective?

You say yourself she has lost control, ignores difficult to manage behaviour and picks on the easy children. I don't see how this can all by blamed on one disruptive child.

I was confused at first when one of my dc was getting a teacher this year that the class had had previously (something they avoid doing) then the penny dropped, they have a child newish to the school that is has probably the most disruptive (and violent etc- brought a knife to school aged 7 ) behaviour in the primary school in their class. Apparantly this child is much better behaved now she is an excellent teacher both in terms of pushing each child to achieve their potential and keeping them all on an equal tight leash - she doesn't play favourites!

......Ktk9 how did your DD get on making friends at the new school? DD has a good bunch of friends, I am friendly with their mums. That would be my main reserervation with moving her. Ver glad to hear your DD is doing so well - there is hope!........

We moved only a few weeks into the September term, so she didn't have time to 'bond' with her new teacher, as that would have been a hard one!!! Leaving her friends was the biggie and we had to handle it carefully, she stayed for her birthday (we thought that it would be harder for her to miss everything related to that), we also had two things arranged, one halloween party and one Christmas fayre, at the school which we promised to go to. I also gave her my old mobile (a real brick of a phone), which she put in all her friends phone numbers and although she hasn't ever used it, I think it helped her feel a bit in control.

Luckily she is outgoing and being an only child, is good at making friends, new school paired her with a little girl who had started in Easter, so was her 'buddy'. She has made lovely new friends, but she does still say she misses her old school friends (but not the school and the noisy class!) and I would say this is the only area that she finds hard. I think too in her old school there was double the number of children, so easier to find someone to play with!

I have probably made more friends of the mums in the new school than the old, but did have a few really good ones and at a party this weekend, I just realised how nice it was to see the old ones and catch up.

However, the positives far outweigh the negatives and dd is so happy and working so well in her new school. I think she knows it is better too.

Slambang, I know you are right. I am going to stand up for DD, and I'm taking notes from what you have written, especially when I get to seeing the head. DD is actually learning, we do a bit with her at home, but it is heartbreaking to think how much more she could achieve if she was in a less disruptive class. Miss L only has a TA in the morning and I think she needs one in the afternoons as well. You make very good points and I appreciate the tips.

Rita, yes I think you are right. I think X was being let down and children Y, Z ,V etc are too. I've known these children since foundation and they are all lovely if you get them on their own. I see how hard the teacher is trying, from helping in the class I can see how hard it is. Good teachers control the class though - this can't go on.

KTK9 Thank you for that. I have to say your DD sounds lovely, and it really sounds like you did the right thing. It's comforting to know it's worked out for you and your DD. There are 2 other possible schools in the area, if it comes to it.

I said I'd update you.

Had the meeting with DDs teacher today (aka Miss Lovely).

Child X has now gone to another school and Teacher says class is much calmer, if I come in and help over the next two weeks she assures me I'll see the difference.

DD says things are better but a few characters are still acting up.

So I will go in the week after next and have everything crossed things have improved.

Slambang I framed my comments as you suggested and I am sure that helped loads.

So parents evening is in a month. I will keep a close eye on the situation, keep on noting DDs comments. I doubt this will be the end of it, but I'd love to be surprised. I just hope that, as few people suggested, child X was the ring leader and all will come good now.

I am so glad I acted thanks everyone for the support, suggestions and encouragement.