Is this very hard for year 2 or am I missing something

[witchwithallthetrimmings]

Maths homework problem, David eats half his sweets and then buys 16 more. He now has 36 how many did he have to start with?

I just asked my Year 2 DS and he knew that he should take 16 from 36 but got stuck doing it on his fingers. with a little help he got there but then said 10 first not 40. With a bit of practice I think he could do it but he is also top group in his class.

In year 2 we teach them about "inverse operations" so I would expect that he would know to work out that the opposite of halving would be doubling...quite tricky I know, but if they have been having lessons all week covering similar questions it should be quite fresh in his mind. Defiantly sounds like a higher ability question.

mumblesmum why not? They have been taught how to do them and it is simple basic calculation and my class are definitely not high ability. There is no bridging ten which would be an issue for some of my class but because 16 and 36 it is straightforward. I find it odd that your's can't to be honest.

They would have no problem with the calculations, but many would have a problem with the two part word problem.

Yes, this question seems quite advanced for a Year 2 child. i work in a primary school and, just recently, did some work in Year 2 Numeracy. If this specific type of word problem ( where the inverse operations are used to find the starting number), were the focus of the day's lesson, then fair enough. But, just including this as a general word problem for a Year 2 child would not be the norm - it is more suited to Year 4.

If it was set as homework, then it is presumably rehearsal of something they have been doing in class. If the class has been properly taught how to approach word problems, then the maths in this one is straightforward, especially using some kind of manipulative or diagram to help, as Mrz describes.

I would epect Year 2 children to have explicit teaching on solving word problems, rather than getting this kind of thing 'out of the blue', though.

mumblesmum have they been taught to solve two part problems?

I think 2 part word problems are one thing and this type of question is more of a reasoning skill. For example, a year 2, two part question would be something like:
Sam had 32 sweets and gave 1/2 of them to 8 of his friends. How many sweets would each of his friends get?
This question differs from OP's math question, in that the two operations are not veiled in verbiage and the question simply necessitates that the child must correctly identify the 2 operations. Whereas, in OP's question, not only did the child have to correctly identify the 2 operations-but, then they had to "reason" that the inverse would have to be used.
I think you could certainly teach a year 2 top ability group how to solve these types of questions, but I sincerely believe that they would only be executing the task by rote and not really understanding why they were doing what they were doing.

They could only do it by rote if they were only presented with that type of problem.
In your example the child needs to work out that they must half then divide by 8 so is it really that different.

You're right - the dividing (sharing) by 8 is, perhaps, a little ambitious for Year 2, but it would probably make a good extension for the top ability group. How my example, however, differs from OP's question is that the task merely requires the pupil to identify the appropriate operation and then execute it, rather than 1) identify the operation, 2) Use the inverse and 3) execute the operation.

OP's original question requires a level of reasoning that a Year 2 pupil seldom possesses or comprehends. Leaving out the "dividing by 8".... a more typical two part word problem for an average Year 2 child should probably just encompass the identification of two straightforward operations... In my opinion, I think the "reasoning" about the operations and word problems comes either in Year 3 and, more securely, in Year 4. I think that, in Year 2, coming to terms with "how" to execute the mathematical operation is paramount and then learning how to identify the appropriate operation in straightforward type questions is next. Using reasoning to discriminate operations is a third tier to a word problem and a step I think is a bit too far for an average Year 2 cohort.

I think you are underestimating what year 2 children are capable of if they have been taught.

Well, I work with the Gifted and Talented children throughout a primary school, so I feel that I have a pretty good grasp on what the higher ability children in each year group are capable of - and, as I said, sure, the higher abiltiy Year 2 pupils could, with teaching, understand that 3 step word problem, but the reasons for inverting the operation would really be a bit "foggy" to them... they would have a vague grasp of why they were, in OP's original problem, doubling the 20, after subtracting 16 from 36. You could explain it to them and they would probably say... "oh, yeah!"...but, give them a similar problem, with a slight twist and they might be confused all over again.
I guess the point is that, without specifically teaching that particular type of question, a child answering regular two step word problems would get stuck with OP's original math problem. You would have to have a whole math lesson to discuss the strategy required for answering those specific "What Number am I" or "What was my original number?" type of questions. To just "slip" that question into general 2 step word problem activity would, I believe, be a bit unfair to Year 2 pupils.
So, in answer to OP's original question - I think the question is a bit hard/tricky for your average Year 2 Pupil. As an extension to a higher abiltiy Year 2 child's work, perhaps - but not without specific teaching of the stratgey required for those particular type of "What Number did I start with?" questions.

Well I don't have any G&T children in my class but my pupils could cope with the problems that have been posted on the thread.

mrz I am amazed that your pupils can manipulate inverse operations in word problems at this time of the year. Are they all working within L3?

Some of the class are working within level 3 certainly not all.

However we teach inverse operations from reception

Hmm DS in Y2 wouldn't have a clue how to approach this; he's pretty average in numeracy, working at 2c/b at the moment.

But then I do have doubts about the teaching in his class anyway so I will just tiptoe away........

I asked my DS (P3 in Scotland, equivalent to Y2 in England). He's in the middle group for Maths, so he's not one of the best ones. I told him the problem, he answered 20 within 2 seconds, then I asked him to listen again to the problem and he answered 40. I actually didn't think he would be able to do it, as it seems to me that the listener has to keep track of a few bits of information.

I agree with Mrz that we underestimate the intellect of children. That's why I think that children should not be divided in set in primary school, but that everybody in the class should be allowed to try even the hardest problems, after the teacher has explained the topic.

Funnily enough, my DD, who is 2 years older than her brother, and very able in Maths, got a bit tangled up when working out the same problem...

Just asked DD2 yr3 and she got it with a bit of prompting.

Will ask the yr6 later; don't hold out much hope.

Interesting point albachiara about not setting so that all pupils can have a go at the hardest problems; My DD2 is in a middle set of three for maths, sometimes lacks a bit of confidence but quite able and I am sure - positive - tht she would relish the wordy/thinking outside the box type problems that the "Top" group probably do - however because she can not instantly answer the 48+23 type questions she doesn't get chance (At the moment, but I am going to raise it at parents evening).

DS1 was able to do it mentally when I have just asked him I think that last year he would have been able to do it using paper and pen.

oh and he is in year 3

I think mrz is demonstrating why some teachers are outstanding and their children make outstanding progress - high expectations and no ceilings!

If you'd like to have a look at a website with a huge range of free material, go to: www.khanacademy.org/#developmental-math-1
If you scroll down to Arithmetic or to Singapore Math, you'll find loads of videos that will talk you and your child through basic maths concepts.

Iamnotinterested, if you raise the issue of "not all children are given a chance to try interesting problems", can you tell us the teacher's comments? Iamveryinterested in this. Thank you.

Actually, I think that, in Primary School, if a child is not quick at arithmetic, s/he is considered not good in Maths. However, if you ask Maths teachers, especially those teaching higher levels (e.g. A-level), or University Maths Professors, several of them will admit that they are not good at Arithmetic. They are Mathematicians, not Arithmetician. Maths is not arithmetic, it is so much more (patterns, logic, etc), but I don't think that primary school teachers see this.

albachiara SOOOO true, IME, thus far in primary school; DD2 will spot a sequence in a pattern very quickly, will happily jot down her 51 x table or want to do column addition when the class has not done it yet But she uses her fingers to count small differences - see thread in PE - so is probably not thought of as an able mathematician. I will ask at parents evening and report back.