Bad language and anti-social behaviour in general

[learnandsay]

A teacher in one of these threads said she teaches children who tell her to fuck off all day long.

If, and when, my daughter comes home using that word I'm going to want to know where she got it from. And if I can manage to find out, some way or other, that children are regularly using that kind of language in her classroom I'm going to want it stopped. I think children who speak like that should be separated from the class. Likewise with children who attack teachers or other children. And I'd visit and write to any number of boards, individuals and committees until those children were removed.

What would other people do?

My personal belief is that a good proportion of antisocial boys who do badly in school go on to commit crime. Perhaps some of what they do out in the streets and fields can't be controlled adequately. But school is a monitored and supervised institution. It can be controlled there and where it affects my children it will be.

On the subject of nasty children and school:-

Adam Swellings, of Warrington, (one of the boys who beat the husband and father, Garry Newlove to death,) went to Padgate High School. I can't find any official details of how he behaved there. All the hearsay and rumours that I can find about his secondary school behaviour speculate that he was indeed horrible.

Rumours and hearsay probably shouldn't be believed. But common sense suggests that he probably wasn't a good boy. (However, his juvenile record has been published. So, between fifteen and seventeen his crimes are a matter of public record.)

So, you really don't want to know anything about the children I work with before using my quote to start a thread leaping to all kinds of conclusions and using my post as an example of Broken Britain?

Are you sure?

Ah well. Let me know if you change your mind.

I find it hard to get too worked up about swearing while there is racism and homophobia around in the world.

A word of warning, before you do storm into school all guns blazing (because your child will hear swearing in school, I guarantee it), do just check how they heard it. A colleague of my mother's had to deal with a parent who claimed school was encouraging chat about lesbianism. It eventually panned out that the child had heard about it from Eastenders, which she watched at home.

Surely far better to invest all your energy in making sure your children realise when swearing is inappropriate?

sorry, tethersend,

Of course you can tell us about your children! But please don't mind too much if we discuss other matters. You're right it was your quote I was interested in.

I think what people are interested in and objecting to learnandsay is your claim that you will 'sort it out'. How do you intend to do this? You say 'when it affects my children it will be' (be controlled that is) - in what way will you enforce this outside of home schooling?

The problem is, OP, is that you fail to see that another child who uses a swearword is a child in exactly the same position as your dd will be the day she comes home and uses a swearword in your hearing, namely a child who is repeating something she has heard elsewhere. So any measures you would have applied to this child could with equal justice be applied to your child when she repeats what she has heard.

Personally, and speaking as a mother of secondary school children, I have always found it better to deal with these things not by blaming the other children but by making it perfectly clear to my children what rules apply to them. Dcs know perfectly well that I am never going to be interested in who taught them something or who led them astray: once I have made it clear that a certain type of behaviour is unacceptable that is all they need to know.

I invest my energy in teaching my own children to behave.

School should be a nurturing environment, not one of blame and segregation. If children of primary age are written off because of learned behaviour, what hope is there of educating them to a different way of life.

although I am tempted to swear!

"Of course, we had the sense not to do this in earshot of the teachers or our parents."

That's the thing- there are no consequences now, no punishments. Teachers are overstretched. What on earth are the idiots in charge doing. They should be shot for what they've done to now one, two generations of children.

There are consequences. At all our local primary schools, there are consequences

A lot - and I do mean a lot - of the children in my class come from families where the language they hear from their earliest years contains a high proportion of swear words.

They arrive at school (the majority of children from these families do not attend any kind of pre-school education) knowing those words and having no frame of reference to compare them with in order to understand that there are contexts in which those words are unacceptable.

However, the ONLY time I have heard a swear word used within the school walls is in reception children within the first couple of weeks of term. The children learn extremely rapidly - by gentle guidance, and by example - that those are not words used in school. If ever used higher up the school, there would be consequences. It is not that I am 'overstretched' and miss my class swearing - it is that within the school walls, they don't as they have learned that it is not acceptable there.

(And the only time I have heard swear words used in the playground has been from some of our 'much more middle class' parents, funnily enough used to describe our less advantaged families....)

Thinking back to the OP - obviously, your daughter never encounaters any adults who swear when she is out of school? Never watches any TV in which swear words are used? Never steps into a shop unaccompanied in case someone swears in her presence? Never walks along a street in case the adults walking along in front of her use a swear word in their conversation? Do you know that none of her friends, from school or otherwise, ever swear when they are not being overheard???

Or is it that you are asking for something to happen in school - a complete cotton wool bubble for your child - that you do not expect in any other area of your child's life? If she used a swear word at home, are you SURE that she would have got that from school??

Schools can, and do, teach children when swearing is not acceptable (and will have measures in place to support children who for many possible reasons may find it very hard to learn that). However, that doesn't mean that those children will never swear under any circumstances - of how many adults can you say that they never swear? And believe you me, there are children for whom if you had been through half the things they had, you would WANT to swear.

Er, mmmm. I've heard of people who come from dysfunctional families and go on to become serial killers. But I don't see why we'd want to support this behaviour in our schools.

I'm not sure where all this "Oh, dysfunctional behaviour is fine and common," attitude is coming from.

Let's get together and be dysfunctional.

LearnandSay are you seriously trying to link serial killing and swearing?

Whatever your other good qualities, listening and learning to people with experience of what actually happens in schools is obviously not one of them.

Swearing of course is v bad. It's also a universal behaviour. Every known language has had swear words (try looking at Shakespeare, for instance, if you want a good example of profuse swearing).

I agree with those who say they find hate-speech more disturbing. Swearing, in context, well -- let those who are without sin, and that's definitely not me. But racial, mysognist and homophobic speech. No. I won't have it.

I'm talking about antisocial and dysfunctional behaviour in schools. The link between bad or dysfunctional parenting, unacceptable junior behaviour and schools separating these children in order to safeguard the other ordinary children. The swearing part of this conversation has rather dominated. But I'd be very suspicious of a child who called his teacher a fat fucking bitch. And I'd be concerned if such children were being taught anywhere near my child. If there's something wrong with these children they need to be removed.

You'll sort the school out? Simple?

Good luck with that. Ha ha ha.

Like others have said at primary age it is not the fault of the children, 99% of primary aged kids by the age of 8+ will know many, many swear words. You cannot wrap your kids in cotton wool - all you can do is teach your children you will not allow them to use those words in the earshot of adults.

Removed to where, Mars?

As it happens, my children go to a school where there are lots of children from what I think you would call dysfunctional families. The behaviour at the school is immaculate and, as far as I know, no child has ever been excluded from that school.

I'd be very suspicious of someone so much at the mercy of their ignorance and prejudices, and so little able to learn from others as you seem to be.

Removed? Removed?!?

I want my children to witness society dealing with difficult behaviour, rather than growing up not knowing it exists or believing it can somehow be amputated!

Its just an extension of us all dealing with our shadow bits, isn't it? Rather than suppressing/denying them?

My eldest dd is 8. She has, not regularly but on occasion, witnessed children behaving in unacceptable ways at school, or using innappropriate language. She knows she could behave that way, she chooses not to. She talks to me about it when she is shocked or fascinated. She has, on occasion, tried some of the inappropriate words on for size - and learned they are not appropriate, and why.

I don't like sweeping problems under the carpet, and thats quite apart from the fact that we're not talking about dust or dirt, we're talking about kids - small, still learning, still able to learn, human beings.

oops

I am waiting until my DS comes home with the f word or similar, he is almost 7 and in an infant school. He will start junior school in Sept so will be exposed to older children - and it will happen.

However, its part of our society and he will have to know that this language exists, that some people use it all the time and that it is not appropriate. I can't believe a teacher would tolerate such language in the classroom , but there is the playground though!

dd learned the 'f' word in Y3. She knows, without being told by me, not to use it.

I also have to admit that, whilst I am generally seen as a responsible, older, well behaved, sensible, etc etc parent - dd may well have heard an occasional 'f' word mumble out of her respectable mother's mouth. I try, but very occasionally - like when I hit my thumb with a hammer - I fail, and revert to my post private girls' school educational norm.

But dd still knows not to use the 'f' word

posh

learnandsay,

We have many children - probably a majority of the school - from families which are 'dysfuntional'.....rather a shortaage of 'MN type' parents round our way!.

As I have said, that background does not translate into 'antisocial' behaviour in school BECAUSE WE DEAL WITH IT and create a 'school norm' where such behaviour is not acceptable. That does not mean that there is no occasion on which a swear word is ever used or where no child ever misbehaves - just that they are appropriately dealt with. The child is actually taught how to behave rather than 'removed' to some mythical 'other place' on the first occasion that they swear / behave inappropriately because in your view they are unable to be taught how to behave....

Thus the children who come from 'sheltered' backgrounds learn how to deal with unacceptable behaviour, and those children from 'dysfuntional' backgrounds learn in school what they will not learn from their familes - how to behave appropriately.

I don't know any teachers who would tolerate bad language in the classroom from a child without specific special needs (agree that we can't know everything that is said in the playground), but it may be that sometimes success is that child A who entered school last week and used a swear word in every other sentence (because that is the language he has heard around him for every day of his short life) is now down to 2 or 3 swear words in a day and next week might be down to 2 or 3 in a week....and for the remainder of his years in school will limit his swearing wholly to his home environment. Isn't that better than 'removing' him on day 1 just because of his start in life??

It is not 'OK' to show dysfuntional behaviour - but it is OK to recognise that such behaviour has a source, and may need focused teaching and support to overcome over a period of time, rather than being a reason to send a child off to 'outer darkness' [a special school for swearers??].