How to encourage children to practise their musical instruments

[TheAvocadoOfWisdom]

Any tips welcome. I have a 6yo who started violin in September. He likes it, and is pleased with the squeaking tunes he can play. But he seems to think that if he has played something through once, it doesn't need any perfecting. He doesn't resist practising once per day, and I don't want to start a battle, but I'd like him to start going over the bars where he's making mistakes, rather than just battling through.

How much should he be practising at this age, and how can I get him to practise usefully?

lingle that hadn't occurred to me. Thank you. I think it will brighten up our day tomorrow :o

Yes, but we aren't in the US.

I may accept it from US posters (although I will need a copy of a passport or somesuch to verify they are telling the truth).

Excuse me, tenebrist, I believe you mean persnickety. :-)

"I'm really interested in how we developed a culture where music is supposed to be unenjoyable in order to be worthwhile."
lingle, who says it's supposed to be unenjoyable!? I would've never put my child through it if that was the case. Unenjoyable just because practising wasn't always and everytime fun? His second instrument is a rock instrument. He now plays along Gun's Roses. And Greenday. And all the bands he loves. It is a joy. It is fun and it's only getting better. But he can only do this after having put in a lot of practise over the years. Yes, it doesn't suddenly happen by miracle to play at that level, so what?
Why doesn't anyone frown at all the boys playing football or rugby for their schools, with all those hours of training, matches under the rain, injuries, disappointments, etc but they frown at a child practising music for 30 min everyday and inmediately assume he is being forced and abused? Is it because it looks like a child kicking a ball is having more fun than practising an instrument? Well, not necessarily true for all. We are ALL conditioned in our thinking.

am thinking about a general culture, not you or your lad. nice it is working out for him

and perhaps a reaction of "just don't expect it to be a fun ride for him all the time because it won't be." did rather remind me of that culture.

I suspect there are more adults who recall their instrument practice with negative emotions than adults who play a classical instrument for joy. Hence a problem with the culture.

yes, sorry if I sounded too ominous. I just meant that in spite of everyone saying "you must make it fun!", it just doesn't always work out that way.
And I'm with you in feeling it's not right all those adults who recall instrument practice with negative emotions. It shouldn't be like that either.

Yes.

I feel that music teaching is quite behind other areas of the curriculum. Sometimes it seems that the instrument teachers just insist on one learning style ("you must read the music, you must never change the notes", etc) because that happens to be one that suits the exam syllabuses. Perhaps 10% of children suit that learning style and catch on - the others then learn that their preferred approach is wrong or flawed and end up as adults who say things like "I'm not musical at all, I could never read the music".

My dad was a bit of a violin prodigy and he actually begged me not to "make" my sons learn violin which I think is terribly sad. I am an enthusiastic amateur violinist but my technique isn't good enough to let me play the things I really want to play in the way I'd like to play them (though that doesn't stop me trying!) and this despite "getting to grade 8". I think the exam industry in this country has a lot to answer for.

I think in the future violin teachers will (I hope) use online tuturials that parents can watch showing the things that really matter: relaxed left thumb, relaxed controlled bow-hold, etc. That is against the entrenched interests of the exam boards though.

do you have any good videos to link to lingle on the violin?

yes there is a great guy called Todd Ehle. His Youtube name is "Professor V"!

www.toddehle.com/id69.html

You can see that his videos aren't aimed at kids. But if he was teaching your small child, you can bet that he would send the child home to you with an age-appropriate version of these videos so you could check the really important things (is the bow straight?) rather than the things that work well on paper (is the note the same as the one on the paper?). And you can imagine any skilled curriculum-designer making games up that you as a parent could play with the child.

HI, Avocado
I think you're doing incredibly well with a practise routine and your attitude is realistic and helpful to your child. Parents who believe that children must enjoy practising their instruments, or not practise (oh I can't bear a fight!) are not doing their kids any favours.

My daughter attends a very "child-centred" Kodaly-based music centre called Colourstrings, which offers the most gentle introduction to instrumental tuition. However, basic technique must be mastered, and children (and parents!) are quite shocked at how difficult it is learning a musical instrument. Violin is perhaps the most difficult to learn. My daughter started in September and the first term was incredibly hard going. But now she is making lovely sounds with her violin, and is playing very simple rhythms and melodies.
We as parents must help them through these difficult stage to a place where they can take pride in their small triumphs. Have a little faith, smile through the screechy practise, stay resolute and encouraging. Your child will thank you for it and you will be glad to have stuck it out.

Avocado,
Sorry I think I ranted a bit the last post and didn't actually offer anything helpful. so here goes:

1. repeating exercises. It's completely natural that your son doesn't want to repeat things - they like to play it once and consider it "done". My DD does that too. Be specific about why you're asking them to do it again. Ask them what the trickiest bits of the piece are? Ok, let's do them again. Sometimes I'll ask her to re-do it and play more smoothly. If the rhythm isn't correct, then I'll get her to put the violin down and clap the rhythm out, then pick the instrument up and do it again. Sometimes I just ask her to play it again and make it sound lovely.
2. It's great that you've got a routine. I think everyday, or six days a week is fantastic, as skills and confidence builds up day by day. My general feeling is 15 minutes minimum up to 30 minutes if things are going well.
   Good luck!

Parents who believe that children must enjoy practising their instruments, or not practise (oh I can't bear a fight!) are not doing their kids any favours.

I think they should enjoy it ("must enjoy" is a bit of a contradiction) and I'm doing them a huuuuuge whopppping favour according to my poor dad.

If they aren't enjoying it, but nonetheless want to continue, then the practice regime should be tailored around them a bit more (requiring more time from us parents ).

But lingle is it not a bit unreasonable to expect a kid to enjoy practising at least in the beginning? They're trying to do something really difficult and frequently frustrating - this isn't always enjoyable. I'm hardly a tiger mother and I don't believe it has to be grim, but learning an instrument isn't a doddle. I think it's similar to learning a language. Right now I'm trying to learn Italian. It's really hard and I"m not naturally gifted at language and I hate hate hate all the vocabulary I need to memorise. Much of this isn't "enjoyable", in fact it's a pain in the ass. However, the thought that one day I'll be able to talk to someone in Rome just thrills me, so I continue.
Perhaps with music it's about gently reminding kids about the bigger picture?

It's fun to imagine what it would be like if there were suddenly no grades and therefore nobody expected them. You'd just get better at your instrument at your own pace, you'd be able to choose the pieces you really like, you wouldn't have to sit through an exam or wait for that exam date to be able to start a new piece... I have friends with children in other countries where that's the reality. There is a different attitude to music learning there. The problem here is the schools: unless you have a certificate to prove it, are you really at this level?, etc. Other people tell me their DCs need the extra push and stimulus that comes with an impending exam and a certificate to hang on their walls. Maybe. But then is it about the music...?
Feynman gave a lecture in the sixties about science teaching which I really enjoyed reading long ago and which came to mind reading your posts about music teaching, lingle. I feel that what he says touches in some way what you say!
www.fotuva.org/feynman/what_is_science.html

I'm smiling at your Italian determination :). I think I'd call that the "striving" model and it's great - and clearly working well for you! - and of course will work for some children - but perhaps only 20% or so to some degree?

AIBU? will have to think about it.

ooh thank you shehulk. I'm going to finish a dull dull contract then read your link. . re grades - grrrrrrrrrrrades that should be.

Thats a brilliant link lingle - thanks :) dds bow hold is a bit sloppy and I have no idea why her teacher doesnt say anything.

oh this is a lovely lecture. Who is this man?

"first delight him in play, and then slowly inject material of educational value."

yes.

"a wonderful number, a deep number, pi. There was a mystery about this number that I didn't quite understand as a youth, but this was a great thing, and the result was that I looked for pi everywhere"

yes, that's what mysterious things should be, like a conversation that you keep overhearing that gets more and more coherent over the years.

"because my father had already taught me that [the name] doesn't tell me anything about the bird"

gosh that's absolutely bloody brilliant and deeply applicable to music.

"I can also define science another way: Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts."

that gives me strength for the work I do with schoolchildren.

highlight of my day, will print it out.

sorry avocado, haven't had time to read the whole thread, jsut wanted to say briefly that learning how to practise I think is one of those things that have to grow a bit. Give him a bit of time to understand how to play a piece beautifully and smoothly. Atm he doesn't he really yet know what to listen for in music but he will pick it up from his lessons and hearing his teacher demonstrate. It will click into place.

If you are there at a lesson or at pick-up, could you ask the teacher how s/he suggests he practise? Thing is crazy mad hacking away at the violin and enthusiastically storming to the end of the piece x 38 doesn't really achieve that much. So when he is ready, he'll break it down and listen for background bow noise and all the rest but maybe not yet. If you play an instrument yourself, you could try to rmemeber how you practised as a beginner.

Otherwise if you don't know how to hold the violin correctly (left hand, bow hand, bow arm, posture, all the rest of it, I wouldn't step in too avidly). Problems hard to fix later.

What I would do: He is only 6, he 's just beginning with it, is be gently enthusiastic. Do not seek to control his practice by being too domineering would be my suggestion.

How about a game like hot/cold? I used to do this with dd and she loved it. Do you know how his hand is supposed to hold the bow and how the bow arm moves? if so, he can choose an open string. I think it will be A and hide a little toy somewhere in the room. You have to find it. When you get closer to it, he has to play forte, just increasing the volume; when you move away from it, more piano, so quieter etc. Important is forte is not pressed out of the string but drawn out with the bow. Listen for that. Piano is not shivery and shaky and needs a bit more push for an upbow. However don't lecture on it. should be fun. When he does it on the D or G string, his bow arm (elbow) has to go higher up. One string just hot/cold. I think he'll enjoy it and it will help a bit.

So glad you enjoyed it lingle. Richard Feynman, 1965 Nobel prize in physics, a truly free thinker.

have found new guru .

you are a total genius SheHulk. DH and I have been having lots of conversations along the lines of "why is lingle putting all these hours in showing kids what music really is at school when there is an even more crying need for someone to step in and show kids what science really is".

just to follow up on ZZZenAgain's good suggestions.

Here's something else you can do and it doesn't matter if you don't know anything about violins and how they work.

As child plays long slow open bows, your jobs is to see if bow is parallel to the bridge (this is really really hard to achieve but the single simplest way to sound good). You can stand at the side of the child with your arm or a stick out reacting to the bow in some comic way. If the bow starts scissoring, follow it so that you are veering from left to right.

The angle of a violin makes it almost impossible to check you are bowing straight in a mirror. The only way I've been able to do it is to stand in the right hand side of a doorway, violin poking through the door, wall to my righ, body angled so that if I bow straight, my bow will never touch the wall and never move too far from it. I started this by sticking paper on the wall, holding a felt tip instead of a bow and trying to draw four straight lines, in line with the different string angles, on the wall. To keep the line straight, I had to use my wrist correctly.It gave me the beginning of the feel for it.

As ZZZ says, these mistakes are hard to correct later. I've been having violin lessons again for two years now. We are still doing just remedial work. The Associated Board who gave me a merit at grade 7 should be ashamed of themselves.

I hate grades. They are so boring.

My son does 10 to 15 minutes a day of guitar. It is part of his routine and I do sit and listen to him. I find it sometimes help to video him practicing. I give him targets. I think its important to be positive about a child's playing even if it does sound awful.

ie. its better to say. "I heard you play that piece with the correct notes, speed and rhythm. Your hard work is really paying off. Can you play it again, you see where it say it says "f" lets make that bit loud and you see where it has "p", lets make that bit quieter. "

Than to say you forgot the dynamics.

I know. even the associated board seems to accept that the exams are distorting music education in this country because teachers are penalised if they don't teach to the test.

It seems that some people are blaming the exam system for poor teaching, though.

I followed an exam syllabus on the whole, did a couple of the actual exams themselves. But it didn't mean that I didn't also do a huge variety of pieces both on and off the syllabus, that attention could be paid to technique, time for ensembles, stuff I wanted to experiment with etc. Exams just give a kind of loose structure and made sure I had to do a variety of pieces including a few I wouldn't have chosen myself, and some of the scales etc that I also wouldn't have chosen to spend a lot of time on myself, even if it were done through games. If I decided to do the exam, it was only after having done lots of things at that level, and going back to choose what I liked best from the lists. I liked being able to see progress in that sort of more measurable way, and having some kind of goal - but that was just the sort of child I was. It doesn't suit everyone. But exams do not have to be a teach-to-the-test only sort of thing, don't have to be the sole focus and aim of lessons, and don't have to be sped through as fast as possible. When that happens, I think it's not so much the fault of the exams, as the way they are used.

However I was in a slightly different exam system abroad, where the examiners did comment on things like technique (I am not 100% sure that they were always specialist examiners in the instrument being examined, as my sisters and I were doing pretty common instruments, so possibly ours were just by chance, but I think they were). So things like bow not being straight or whatever should have been commented on. Also there was much less of a culture of speeding through the exams, where I come from; there were more of them, and more involved requirements for them all, so it wasn't the same sort of 'race to grade 8' at as young an age as possible as I see sometimes here. I agree that that sort of musical education can be really lacking in some cases.