Phonics experts - letter u sounds!

[sparkle12mar08]

Ds1 in year 1 has had new spelling rule homework this week. They're asked to learn five pretty easy spellings and then to investigate the rule that accompanies them, and come up with another couple of examples if they can. Last week the words were put, push, bush, pull and another I can't remember. He came up with underground and Callum as his other examples. We got the book back earlier this week and he got all his spellings right but the extra examples were marked as wrong. I asked the teacher afterwards to explain to me and she asked very nicely whether I was from what might be considered the North. Yes, I reply, why? Well apparently 'u' has three sounds - uh, oo, and U: uh as in under, p'oo't in 'put', and 'U' in uniform. Apparently we Northeners don't distinguish between the first two of these sounds appropriately! So all last weeks spellings were 'oo' sounds - p'oo't, p'oo'sh, b'oo'sh, p'oo'l.

Okaaaay. However on trying to clarify with her, she can't say whether or not there's a rule as to when uh vs oo is used, or whether it's simply a pronunciation/accent issue. If it's the latter I'm not happy about how it's being dealt with at all. Either there is a spelling rule they're learning or there isn't. So can anyone explain the rule on when these different sounds occur, or help me find it online or something? Thank you!

I am not an expert but I don't think there's a simple rule such as after letter "x" it always sounds "oo" - it is just something which happens in the language.
In the case above the teacher would have been looking for examples following "put, push, bush", so maybe "full, bull, tuk tuk (Sorry was struggling for examples myself!) which use an "oo" sound rather than a short "uh" like "dull, cull, mull, hut, rut".

To me they sound very different, but if you pronounce them both the same because of your accent then maybe your DS just needs to know that there are different ways of spelling that particular sound and when each is correct. I think it is just something that needs to be learnt in the same way as there is no specific rule for how an "ay" sound is written - think "plate, tray, hail" all the same sound but written differently.

This teacher sounds a bit rude. It is an accent thing; it is not that northeners don't distinguish between the two sounds appropiately, but simply that they just use the same sound for all these words.

As a southerner, I am not aware there is a rule.

We pronounce put the same way as you, but pronouce but differently.
We pronounce bush and push the same way as you, but pronounce gush, hush, lush, mush, rush etc differently.
We pronounce pull, full and bull the same way as you, but pronounce cull, dull, gull, hull, lull, mull etc differently.

Try finding a rule in just that little lot. I can't. I would say that, for southerners, these few words are exceptions; for northerners, there is simply nothing to learn.

She seems to be creating a problem where none exists. I would love you to ask her (on behalf of a southern friend) what the rule is, again. I would be interested to see what she comes up with.

Just ignore it. He got hw wrong one week. No big deal.

The idea of sending home 5 words with the same spelling rule and getting the child to think about the rule and find similar rules is good, and I'd be pleased with that as hw.

I was very pleased, it's great - but if there isn't a rule then how can it be wrong? That's my concern, that the teacher can't articulate the rule to me. She's said she'll investigate and try and get back to me. But I won't have his worked marked as wrong if she can't articulate to either of us why it's wrong!

This question about sounds in the English language is one of the most difficult for people to explain clearly.
Firstly, the sound /oo/ as in 'book', 'took' and 'look', as spoken in the south of England (generally) can be spelt ; it can be spelt , as in 'put' and 'bush'; and, it can be spelt as in 'could', 'would' and 'should'. This is an example of the concept or idea 'one sound but different spellings'.
The confusion is compounded because the spelling used by phonics teachers everywhere to represent the sound /oo/ as in 'book', as said in the south, is the same as the spelling used to represent the sound /oo/, as in 'moon' or 'soon'. [This is the same issue as with in 'this' and the in 'thing' - one spelling but different sounds.]
Where the questions about these two sounds arise is when we begin to differentiate between accents of English. For example, in many parts of the north and midlands, people don't say 'book' or 'look' or 'put' in the same way as they say the sounds in those words in the south. They say the the first two to rhyme with 'moon' and 'soon'. They say the vowel sound in 'put' in the same way as the vowel sound in 'bus'.
So, the difference here, as runoutofideas says, is a difference in accent. I should think that your son will begin to adopt the accent of his peers over time, unless he has a particularly strong sense of identification with where his mother comes from! However, this shouldn't trouble him overmuch. Children differentiate accents all the time: compare 'bath', spoken as /b/ /ar/ /th/ or as /b/ a/ /th/. If they hear the one they wouldn't normally use, they have no trouble in understanding it.
Your son's teacher was, by the way, quite right too. The in 'underground' is an 'u' sound, as in 'bus'; the sound represented by the letter in 'Callum' is actually a weak vowel sound, called a 'schwa' in English language circles. It sounds a bit like an 'uh' in 'Callum' when one is speaking normally.
English is a difficult language in which to teach children to read and spell well. That's why teachers need rigorous training in how to teach it; otherwise, we end up with the kinds of confusions we see every day in Mumsnet.

So if it's 'just' a difference in accent his extra suggestions were not wrong! It can't be both ways - if there is a fixed rule then yes his suggestion don't fit that rule and I'm perfectly happy with that. But if it's simply an accent issue then he, and I, are not wrong. There needs to be a better differentiation and explanation on her part - I'd like to think I could understand a technical explanation fairly well - I'm reasonably intelligent (I hope!) - and therefore would be more than happy to explain it to my son. If there are rules, and some things are right and some things are wrong, and on top of that there are accent issues as well, then I'll deal with it an explain it to him happily. But if there isn't a rule that she can show and explain to me, then he's not wrong.

Bleurgh. This has way more to do with my 'issues' than his, I know. He'll be a proper southener through and through - he already says 'scon' as opposed to 'scohne', but this is just the sort of thing that used to bother me as a child - wanting an explanation, a rule, something concrete I could follow. It's also complicated by the fact that my own accent is schizophrenic depending on who I'm talking too, and even within the same sentance sometimes! I'm quite capable of saying something like 'go down the p/ar/th to the c/a/stle' for example!

Does your son use the same accent as you, or a more southern one? I would say that if he uses the sounds in the same way as you, then the homework shouldn't have been marked wrong - if however he uses them differently, then he didn't pick the right one for his example.

It really does seem to be about you. I can't see why you mind that he got his hw wrong one week. Why make a big deal out of it?

I have had a similar issue with accents as I have generic southern accent, but both my boys speak like their daddy with in proper Yorkshire. It used to astound me that my eldest at around 4 would differentiate between us by using lengthened vowel sounds for me and shortened for dad, but a couple of years at school and he has of course got used to speaking only with the local dialect.

I would be furious at any attempt by a teacher to openly disrespect other accents. Unless she can come back to you with clear rules and explain to your son why he could not be accredited for his investigations I would cascade this issue to head of keystage or deputy, as the teaching staff should have discussions on how to accommodate such differences without making the pupils feel bad for not "getting it right". The last thing you want to do is put them off having a go for fear of getting it wrong. I suspect though that this conversation you are having with him now is the best way to help him think about this learning point.

Either there is a spelling rule they're learning or there isn't.

As with many English spellings, there is and there isn't.

The u/oo spellings are tricky
a) partly because up North and including Liverpool words with , like
'bus, cup, shut', are pronounced with the same sound as 'push, pull, full'
or 'wood, wool, could' which is usually called short /oo/ (as opposed to the long /oo/ of 'moon, soon, spoon') in standard English.

b) because the short /oo/ sound of standard English has no spelling of its own.

All the spellings used of short are more common for other sounds:

'pull - dull, gull; should - shoulder; good - food, mood'.

Fortunately, only 36 words have a short /oo/ sound in standard English:
Good, hood, stood, wood.

Book, brook, cook, hook, look, rook, shook, took.

Wool. Whoosh. Foot.

Could, should, would.
Cuckoo.
Bull, full, pull, bullet, bullion.
Bush, cushion, push, shush.
Put, butcher, pudding, pussy, sugar.

Wolf, woman. Courier.

I would be furious at any attempt by a teacher to openly disrespect other accents.

I can sympathise, but should parents perhaps make their chidren aware that hearing 'bus, cut, shut' pronounced with the same sound as 'push, sugar, shook' is horrendously annoying to millions of southerners?

But perhaps accents are like religion and parents feel that they must impose their one on their children?

Thank you Mashabell, that first explanation helps a lot. English must be an absolute pig to learn as a second language. I hope my son's teacher can explain as well as you and SoundsWrite have here.

I was mercilessly ribbed for my accent when I went to university and have conciously modified it a lot over the years - 'look at the cook book' would have been a classic for me with proper long 'oo' sounds, whereas now I say something like 'luk at the cuk buk', which is probably not quite the short /oo/ sound the teacher is after but not quite as blunt as 'uh' either. I guess I am still a bit touchy about it, but more than that, I get very annoyed when people can't explain why they're labelling things right or wrong whether it's in phonics, literacy, maths whatever. That's my main issue here.

Is there a website where I can hear these sounds, btw?

I've been corrected on my 'u' sounds by my DD4 - she is being taught by a teacher with a Yorkshire accent and I'm from the south - so I am saying them wrong now..apparently.

"I can sympathise, but should parents perhaps make their chidren aware that hearing 'bus, cut, shut' pronounced with the same sound as 'push, sugar, shook' is horrendously annoying to millions of southerners? "

What are you talking about? Please tell me that was a joke.

And fwiw there are NO pronunciation "rules" in Standard English - that term refers to grammar, syntax and vocabulary only.

Search in youtube for Jolly phonics. All the sounds are there.

To clarify, I don't mean that there aren't patterns which many words will fit into (which we might call rules) just that there is no standard for pronunciation, despite what some RP speakers might believe.

I was at a reading for Reception age children workshop yesterday and the tutor recommended a website called Mr Thorne Does Phonics. I've not really had chance to have a good look at it yet but it does seem good for hearing the phonics sounds.

As a died in the wool Scouser I'd like to know why everyone is happy pronouncing SNOOKER with a long "oo" but fell about laughing when I used to say "COOKER" or "BOOK"? After 20+ years in the Midlands I just sound like everyone else now.

I can sympathise, but should parents perhaps make their chidren aware that hearing 'bus, cut, shut' pronounced with the same sound as 'push, sugar, shook' is horrendously annoying to millions of southerners?

You do have a real gift for offending people, don't you, masha? What is especially ironic about your assertion is that you are not even English, so WTF do you know about it?

Speaking as a native English Southerner who has lived in the North (the Proper North -Yorkshire & Durham) for many years I have NEVER found the different pronunciations in the least bit annoying. Neither has any relocated Southerner that I know!

On the other hand, many Northerners can't bear that I pronounce 'bath' as 'barth' (etc.)

I am a southern TA in an East Yorkshire school. I regularly have to change my pronunciation when doing phonics. We laugh about it and I tell them my accent is different to theirs...that I say "grarse,barth,buht" but that they say "grass,bath and but (as in put)", that neither is wrong, it's just the way it is, and to follow their own accent when sounding out.

I think that mashabell is being horribly offensive in her statement that the accent is annoying to 'southerners'! My accent can be just as annoying to 'northerners' !

Many of masha's statements demonstrate her ignorance of English culture and the history that colours our language and regional accents.

Sorry if I am a little slow in adding this, but there is a schools phonics program now available at half price for Mumsnet :) and you can hear 'oo' sounds on this web address: www.sirlearningsystems.co.uk/oozounds.html