Year 5 maths

[blimppy]

I'm concerned that DD2 is not making progress in maths this year. She is in the top set and assessed at level 4a (which is the same as at the end of Year 4). I know that this is above average, but have realised that she lacks confidence and knowledge in a number of key areas that I would expect her to be mastering now: specifically, long multiplication, including when both numbers are greater than 10; long division, percentages and negative numbers. She says that she is not being taught these things. I know that she has done some long multiplication and long division at school, using the "grid" method, but don't know how much. Due to a recent change in homework policy, she now gets no academic homework and certainly no maths homework, other than learning times tables (and she knows these already!). I therefore have no view on what she is doing. I am hoping to speak to her teacher later today, but wondered whether others think an able 10year old should be covering these subjects?

We're only a term into the year - she would not be expected to move up a sub-level yet.

Good progress is 2 sub-levels a year.

Thanks for the response. Tbh it's not really the progress through the sub-levels that concerns me. It's the fact that she does not appear to be learning the topics and skills I would expect her to be learning at this age and level.

DD is y5 in the top set, I will ask her later. Offhand I think what she's doing sounds similar to what your DD is on. Lots and lots of time tables & division facts, steady plod at other concepts. Seems similar to what I was doing at same age.

I bloody hated long division, nearly put me off maths for life. And yet I turned out to be good at things like algebra & calculus & even mental maths (later, when I taught myself chunking & all the modern methods nobody taught my generation at school). So I don't think you should compare to what we learnt as whippersnappers, I personally find modern teaching approach is so much better than the rote learning I encountered.

Sounds similar to my DS - who also seems shakey on long mult and div. I don't know how your school works but my DS seems to start a different topic in maths every week to 10 days so never really masters one before moving onto the next. I also think these new-fangled modern methods like the the grid method confuse and delay progress, especially when they then have to change evrything they've been taught to try a different method [never like that in my day.....]

Seeline, have to admit I HATE the grid method. I know it's meant to help children understand what's happening with the numbers when you multiply, but in my experience it is confusing and also the large numbers of zeros can get "lost" and lead to miscounts! Much better if they taught the traditional method. Those with real maths aptitude will understand the concepts anyway and the rest gain a skill for life. I am not particularly good at maths, but since the age of 9 have been able reliably to multiply any numbers presented to me! Anyway, rant over. It's reassuring to know that what DD2 is being taught appears similar to others. Will still talk to teacher though to raise my concerns. DD2 is getting fed up of emphasis on times tables and frustrated at not doing new stuff.

DD successfully & fairly quickly figured out answers on walk home to

25% of 16
80% of 400

& says that with some time she could figure out the answers to 623 / 36 & 234 * 44. "Probably using the vertical method". She never heard of "long division".

I came to live in UK 20 yrs ago, & very quickly was extremely impressed with how good & fast everyone else's mental maths was; even people working in the pub (of any age) could do mental math so much faster than me (with a Uni degree in technical subject); I would have needed a calculator for all the same problems. So I made it my pet project to learn good methods for mental methods & figured out things like chunking for myself. I don't know when that came into British schools... anyway, I am a huge fan of all the modern methods. They are all very intuitive to me & really make math come alive imho. DC have a much better feel for the beauty of numbers & maths than I ever did at their age. They get the relationships between numbers, they find them intriguing.

what's chunking? DS in bed so I can't ask him!

As division is really just repeated subtraction ( just as multiplication is simply repeated addition) chunking is just a method of recording the "chunks" you take away. SO if you have 136 divided by 6, you would, say, take off 20 chunks of 6 ( as 20x6 is easy to work out) leaving you with 16. Then take off 2 more "chunks" ( as 2x6 is easy to work out) leaving you with 4. So the answer is the number of chunks you have taken off (22 remainder 4)
Simple!

Chunking is approaching a division with the chunks of the divisor - the child uses information they already know so it raises confidence. I've always done it on a number line so many children refer to it simply as 'dividing with a number line'

For example 681/3 =

we know that 100 x 3 = 300 (or even better that 200 x 3 = 600).
681 - 300 =381 100 x
381 - 300 = 81 100 x

we know that 3 x 20 = 60 so
81 - 60 =21 20x
21 is in the 3 times table - 21/3 = 7x

add them all together 100+100+20+7 = 227.

Its easier to see on a number line!
The benefit of this is that, eventually, children will get to the answer (even if they have to make loads of chunks) and it makes a very clear connection to the times tables as 'groups of'. As they go over these problems they are practising their times tables and getting better at making fewer chunks.

Traditional long division requires children to have a fairly good knowledge of their times tables already (not just their 10s, 5s and 2s) and, rightly or wrongly, many of them don't.

To the poster who mentioned the grid - if zeros are lost they are doing it wrong. Not a dig at you though, everyone gets frustrated when methods change every few years!

I like both the grid method and chunking - grid works really well if the child is sound on place value first.

Chunking was a bugbear of mine until it was demo'd by DD1's excellent maths teacher, who had us doing a huge division in our heads in under a minute without using paper, as long as we used the method. It's a very elegant way of working.

I believe that times tables are essential and should still be taught, but many of these 'newfangled' methods are actually really intuitive as long as the foundations for using them have been put in place.

DD1 did long division (using both 'bus shelter' method and chunking last year and she was in a top set working at 5C, she touched on percentages but is only really getting to grips with it now (converting between percentages, fractions and decimals as a matter of routine, useful in real life!). She is in Yr6 and aiming for a 5A. She did touch on negative numbers last year, but not in any real depth - TBH at school in Holland I didn't touch on negative numbers until I was in Yr7.