"b" and "d" confusion - cursive writing

[albachiara]

Hello,
maybe somebody can tell me what they think about this.

My DS (almost 7) still confuses b and d. I have tried A LOT of things. I have used the resources posted on similar posts on mumsnet, DS has the word "bed" as a small poster in his bedroom, we tried the thumb/fist trick to spell bed, etc etc. I have made him write the lette "d" 50 times, but at the end of it, he tells me, very proudly, "Look how many b's I have written!!!" Poor child, what a waste of his time!

It seems that he's ok with reading b and d, but when it comes to writing them, he just doesn't see any difference.

So, I thought of another strategy: using the cursive script for d and b (well, d is more or less the same, but "b" is quite different (see page 4 of
www.donpotter.net/PDF/Cursive%20First.pdf). I was thinking, I was taught cursive writing when I was 5 (almost 6) (this is not in the UK) before learning "lower case print", and I don't remember any child in my class having problems with b/d. Maybe I don't remember well, but I'm sure that b/d was not an issue.

So, I am thinking of ask my DS's teacher to let him write the "b" in cursive writing (although the rest of the letters will not be cursive, just joined up). Is this a bad idea?

Please don't tell me to relax and just ignore the problem, and that the problem will disappear at some point. I'm sure that eventually my DS will get it, but at the moment, when he's writing, if he has to write b or d, he stops, tries to think (and usually gets it wrong anyway), loses the flow, concentration, and confidence.

If I can find an "easy" way to help him, I would be so happy!

Any thoughts? Thank you!

I use "b has a big bottom" to help my DS1 (year 1) remember that that the loop comes behind the line.

Also helps in telling him that d comes after c - so try drawing a c first then drawing the line to make it a d - might help him get it?

Thank you!

I haven't tried the big bottom, but I have tried the d comes after the c. This helps him for the day (maybe) but then it gets forgotten. (he would actually say "the b comes after the c", even though he knows his alphabet).

We have tried "first the bat, then the ball" (b), and "first the dog's body then the tail" (d). Again, this helped for a day, but then he doesn't remember to apply the trick on his own.

Maybe I've tried too many things, but I wanted to find something that worked for him.

I'll try the big bottom idea!

DS1 likes it because he wrote "boo" and pretended the o os were 2 poos. That seemed to help him get it!

remind him d is just a tall a

Knowing how to form letters correctly helps but cursive writing will often solve the problem of reversals

For some it can be visual processing issue have a look at the logos at the bottom of this links web page

As a parent (not a teacher) with a DS with a b in his name I could not understand how in yr2 he could still muddle them. It did just go though by the summer. They started joined up writing at Easter The reversed z is still with us but given frequency of use...

thanks everybody! I will try the boo. I'm sure he'll be very amused and maybe that will finally be something he can remember to use.

If that doesn't work, I'll talk to the teacher about letting him write the b in cursive.

dolfrog : thank you for the link. I'll have a look, but I have the (probably bad) attitude that I don't want to find "excuses". Also, to me it seems hard to understand how DS cannot remember the difference between a "b" and a "d", when he can tell me the tiniest difference between two lego people by memory, and when he knows that one piece of lego model (that I made to help him!) is wrong (it's the mirror image of the correct one), and he can understand Lego instructions more quickly than me. But he still gets "b" and "d" mixed up!

This is so frustrating!

Thanks again everybody!

Have a look of your 'bed', can you see the board?Draw a picture .

A tip which helps my DD is that a lower case b can be made into a capital B, but a d can't make a capital D

Do you mean by a cursive b, a b written like a 6 with a straight back? An open b that finishes in the middle of the letter looks very different to a d. Open bs (and ps to avoid confusion with qs) are supposed to make differentiating them much easier, if you (and their teacher!) can put up with the different formation.

b should never be written like a 6 with a straight back!!

by cursive "b" I mean one that is formed like a cursive "l" (!! I don't think this explanation is going to help; I mean an "l" with a "loop") but then it goes back up and forms a belly with a little tray on top. I guess it's easier to see page 4 of this link: www.donpotter.net/PDF/Cursive%20First.pdf

It's interesting to note that DS doesn't really have problems with "p" and "q", but I think it's because "p" is so much more frequent than "q" , and "q" has "u" after it, so he can quickly spot if he has written a "q" instead of "p" and corrects it.

I guess I just like cursive writing, and I think joined up writing is a compromise between "small letter" print and cursive, and it's quite artificial. It doesn't flow as cursive writing does.

Also, I think that the formation of "b" is a bit awkard. a,d,o,c, all go counterclockwise, but the round bit of "b" goes clockwise.

I guess I have too much time in my hands if I can spend it by finding all the things I don't like about letter formation!

Anyway, thanks so much for all your advice. It's always very useful.

Lots of children form their "b" as a "l" (stick) with a loop that goes up and but that it wrong I'm afraid and the absolute bane of my life as far as handwriting is concerned.

"b" (if it has a lead in) should start from the line go up to the top and back down to the bottom then straight up to the middle and loop down to the bottom and join from the bottom line (if there is no lead in it should start from the top)

b is the same handwriting letter group as r, n, m, h, k , p

d starts the same way as c and is the letter group c,a, o, g, s, q, e

We draw our bats first and then our balls.

sorry alba I should have read your post. Most schools I know don't use the style you linked to and my reply was the method needed for most commonly used style in schools.

mrz , you are the teacher who couldn't put up with the different formation! Alba the link to the cursive b is exactly what I was trying to describe. An old fashioned open b that is formed like a 6, but doesn't touch the 'stick,' therefore open. Perfectly correct and very different from a d. My last school taught that method from reception to try to help all the children get over the b/d problem.

I can't put up with letter "b" written like a number 6 or letter "a" that has an open top so might be an "u" ...

A closed "b" is also formed completely differently to a "d" so gets over the b/d problem unless teachers let the child start both as a ball

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=cursive+letter+formation&hl=en&cr=countryUK|countryGB&client=firefox-a&hs=WT9&sa=X&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&biw=1138&bih=520&tbs=ctr:countryUK|countryGB&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=_uKLfRvswO-vnM:&imgrefurl=www.partnersineducation.co.uk/buy/index.php/parents/literacy/cursive-letter-formation-practice-board.html&docid=m-4Wv3NwEDzvHM&imgurl=www.partnersineducation.co.uk/buy/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/470x/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/c/u/cursive_handwriting_practice_board.jpg&w=470&h=470&ei=0ZMQT6fpI4j58QP2-OTrAw&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=418&vpy=134&dur=1074&hovh=225&hovw=225&tx=124&ty=74&sig=106915785124794934187&page=1&tbnh=134&tbnw=134&start=0&ndsp=12&ved=1t:429,r:2,s:0" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"> cursive letter formation

Yes, but a closed b like your link still looks like the mirror image of a d, whereas an open b doesn't. Not to everyone's taste, I suppose. An open, cursive b is formed anti clockwise but shouldn't be mistaken for a 6 in written work. An a that looks like a u, well that is a pain!

ElleJAneisnotmyname : you mentioned that your last school taught the old fashioned "b". In your opinion, do you think that helped with the "b/d" confusion?

mrz : please be patient with me... I'm a bit slow. Is this www.primarytopics.co.uk/english/handwriting/interactive/lowerb.htm the correct way of forming "b"? This is what DS would use for b, and I'm pretty sure he uses the correct one for "d." He has formed these letters correctly for more than a year, but this doesn't help him when he has to decide where to start for a "b" or "d". Do you think I should correct him all the time he gets it wrong, and tell him to concentrate and think before he writes it down, or should I just let him be, and let the problem go away by itself? It's hard to decide when to intervene, and when it is time to stop because the intervention is not helping at all.

Anybody's point of view is welcome!

Thank you.

I'm afraid I moved to my current school before they had used the open b for more than a few months. The b/d mix up was one of their major reasons for changing, however. The consultant they got in to teach the staff the 'new' method insisted that it would help and would also help dyspraxia, but they would say that, wouldn't they! It was an infant school, reception were taught a printed version of cursive and from Y1 all the DC were encouraged to join their letters.

My friend who is dyslexic had great trouble with her b and d. A teacher taught her to draw a bed. Then put the letters in with the b as the head and pillow, e in the middle and d is the end. The image stayed with her so she remembered which way they go.

Hope that helps.

Oops, would help dyslexia, not dyspraxia. Sorry...

That is the way I would teach "b" in reception albachiara and d like this in Y2 children use a lead in
I encourage my class to use a "mantra" while actually forming the letter so the movements for each letter
I would teach c, a,d together because they all have the same starting point and would always remind children that "d" starts as an "a" but goes up tall until it becomes second nature. Some children need reminding for longer than others ...
joining does help

www.primarytopics.co.uk/english/handwriting/interactive/lowerd.htm
www.dyslexiacentre.co.uk/nessy/guests/guests/bdpfreebie.pdf

I had to laught at the 'new' method of 'open' b! I was taught that at Primary school long before a good many of you were born!

To revert to the OP:

I have made him write the letter "d" 50 times, but at the end of it, he tells me, very proudly, "Look how many b's I have written!!!

Just as a matter of interest, was he actually saying the sound /d/ as he wrote each of those 50 letters? Saying the sound as you write it is supposed to be a good method of reinforcing the learning.

I am also curious that people are talking about 'cursive' and 'joined up' writing as though they were two different things. Can anyone enlighten me (you're never too old to learn, after all )?

Maisie, That's why I put 'new' in inverted commas.