Thinking schools - house buy - school hunt: going MAD.

[MaMattoo]

I have an 18 mo DS who goes to the nursery at work and recently the manager asked me if I have put 'his name down' at a school. No, is the answer to that. DH and I are keen to go the state school way and so I am not quite sure how to frame the million questions in my head. So Disclaimer time: We have done private schooling overseas and know very little about schools, applications, costs etc. Did HE here in UK so know about schools only via UCAS apps that I see at work.

We rent in NW zone 5 London and work in NW london - both commute 40 mins to work to Finchley and Hanger Lane. Now we are thinking of buying a place but have to think schools (and what i learn from lurking - primary and secondary schools). DH thinks we should move further out of the city to get better housing (space wise) and find a house according to the school options.
And so - I dont know where to start - which areas, what schools. The DFE ratings are full of numbers and I dont know what to look for.

Should I be looking for infant/ junior/ pre-school/ primary? what is the difference?

Could I ask for advice on locations, suggestions for state schools and how to go about hunting. The priority is to move where it is friendly and safe. And a 'normal' school which values parental contribution and children's happiness.
I shall happily click away on any links you add. I will lap up any information. I am currently hiding from the ambitious and active NCT mums who have deposits paid up and house's bought in catchment areas for their little ones. They have been lovely friends and great support but all recent conversations have been about this school vs that and I think I should really get started with house/area/school hunting. Manager's comment sounded like a wake up call.

Please help!

there were numerous threads about where to buy in regards to good schools, unfortunately I can only advise on South London schools, but hope someone from your are would help

No advise on area but your LO is prob similar age to my ds. If date of birth on or before end Aug 2010, you need to apply for schools in Autumn 2013 for admission september 2014. If date of birth sept 2010 of later you have another year.

'Putting your name down' now won't increase your chances of admission (in state system - private I have heard of tiny babies being on waiting list), although moving in within a month or so of application deadline might lead to questions, but as you are buying should be easy to convince them you aren't just there temporarily.

Maybe look at hertfordshire (though still pricey). Also if you both still plan to work full time you need to consider before and after school care. Many schools do wrap around care, 8-6, but you still need to make sure you can get to work and back, and usually children do half days for first few weeks. 8-6 is also a long day for them when expected to be learning, and after school clubs won't do homework/reading with them. Good luck with move. We moved out of London 10 yrs ago and is great.

Thanks both! Being relatively new to London I think I should explore and make a list of 'decent' areas in NW suburbia. I only know of radlett, bushey, Watford, high wycombe, amersham and ickenham. Some of which go past our budget in many different ways. St albans and twickenham are very expensive too.
Also are there good schools anyone is pleased with in this generic direction outside of London?
You mention Hertfordshire..whereabouts is it good?

You can't "put your name down" for a state school. That system changed about 10-15 years ago.
You need to apply online (or paper version) to the LEA, who will allocate a place to your child based on their borough/county's entry criteria and, if there is space, according to any preference you have stated for particular schools.

"those who are wealthy enough seem to take their children out to the private system and ambitious parents move out to find middle class areas, leaving the less able/interested in the schools."

This is such a wild generalisation. There are lots of places where keen aspirational parents (including working class - you know!) and those living in a few 'conservation area' streets live close to and in amongst less motivated parents, and the childen attend excellent state schools.

Snobbery and an aversion to a diverse demography is common, but loads of 'ordinary' middle class parents send their children to state schools in all areas of London.

As you have an 18 month child you have definitely 2 years and possibly 3 years, depending on when they were born before you have to apply. You will apply in the autumn term - september to christmas for a place in reception class the following september.
I would look for a general area that you are happy to live in and can afford and then look around for an area that seems to have mainly good schools. Schools that are outstanding now can and do go down the pan within a couple of years, whereas a currently poor school with a new head teacher could in a couple of years be an outstanding school.

It also has to be said that the playground parental chatter tends to be well behind the actual capability of the school. So what the parents chatter about as a really good school could well be on the downward slope, whereas a school that has been poor takes a very long time to loose that tag.
I would choose an area to live and then go and visit schools and see which one you like the most. Go with your gut feeling on the school first and then Ofsted reports and then parental chatter last.

Can you talk to colleagues at your work about affordable options? I take it you are in tertiary education. It is indeed of paramount importance to buy in the right area to get into a decent school. I'm not in London but worked at a university when we first got here. Colleagues have been the best info in getting us to buy where we are now.

Thank you. Commuterland does sound just like the kind of thing that would help. The Parent guide is also useful and I think I shall buy both. I still dont know the difference between a grammar/comprehensive etc type of basic things.
Focussing on secondary might also be a good way to think about house location. I just wish someone designed a house buying website that flashed homes in good school areas LOUD and clear for people like me.
I work in academia and have often seen the (now not so) odd student who struggled despite being very bright because the basic grounding was poor from the school education they had received. I dont want my son to be in that situation. I dont expect him to do a PhD but I do expect him to know how to spell, write and do basic calculations and know Brazil from Argentina on a map! (I kid you not..3rd year student asked me if China and Japan share a border which is why they look similar)
But I wander off..
I could talk to colleagues and I am..however a lot of people now commute in from Birmingham and other such places to work and a majority of people have much older kids..but I shall ask around. Some one recommended Richmond..but it seems to be very expensive around the Molesley type areas..I also work with a bunch of snobs..mainly and its much nicer to get answers that i 'get' here on MN.

Thank you for taking time to answer my questions.

Don't trust Estate Agents when they tell you a house is in the catchment for a particular school, they may or may not be correct. Especially as often there is not a "catchment" but just concepts such as "closest school" or "priority area" or "distance from school".

BTW Richmond is nice, expensive and has good Primary schools, but I've known people move from there because of the secondaries.

Move to High Barnet ... lovely primary, Foulds, then you are near for the good selective secondaries ... QE Boys, Owen's, Mill Hill ... and the privates, Habs, St Albans, NLC, should you need them. Good luck!

No, this is the bit I find a generalisation: "the wealthy go private or move and concentrated levels of deprivation create an imbalance."

Some wealthy people do, some schools have an 'imbalance' of some kind or another, but many many middle class people, like me, live in a middle class road and send their children to an excellent state school which reflects the mix of the local community, including the educated and want-to-be-educated.

I live in Lambeth.

I think books like the one you cite feed off, and feed, middle class panic about London schools. In some areas the situation IS terrible - a shortage of spaces and a shortage of schools with a critical mass of families who support education (from whatever class or background). There are definitely areas like that. Depending on the sex of your children and your religious affiliation the North of Lambeth and Southwark can be problematic for secondary (but have many brilliant primary schools) and on the same qualifications (sex / religion) the Southwark / Lewisham borders are also tricky. But again have great primaries. There are also areas with similiar mixes of a wide range of communities where there are good secondary schools: around Graveney, Chestnut Grove, Norbury Manor Girls, Sydenham Girls, Archbishop Tennison (faith but not v strictly), La Retraite (Girls Catholic), Charter, Dunraven, Haberdashers, Harris Crystal Palace, Elmgreen. The Kingsdale lottery. Hackney has some excellent secondaries, attended by a wide diversity of children including very middle class. In fact in Lambeth the increasing quality of the schools has added admissions pressure because the numbers of mc parents who in the past sought private education are now happy with state! Lambeth having one of the fastest improving set of results in the country, on value added and actual measures.

Still 'edgy' areas or bordering edgy areas, but that's a lifestyle decision over whether you want to commute or live closer in, not a schools issue.

Sorry - I meant to say, I have no wish to flame you, personally, but I do take issue with the general demonisation of S London schooling that goes on, and think it not helpful because it does make people scared and nervy, where a visit to a few schools might make them more re-assured! And the good gets tarred with the same generalisation as the bad and people miss opportunities they could have had.

I don't think YOU are a snob, but many decisions to move out are based on snobbery, judging by what I have seen on MN and in the wretched Guardian Family pages (e.g an article a few years ago making wild assumptions about a perfectly sound comp, for example, in which the author faked religion to go elsewhere).

I didn't suggest any of the places I know to have a good location for schools, community and house prices to the OP because it looks as if she would favour N London.

In S London look at living within the catchment for Rosendale and then either Charter or ElmGreen, or any of the E Dulwich primaries and then Charter. Or the Lambeth / Wandsworth catchments for good primaries such as Telferscott and then Chestnut Grove, Tooting for Graveney (or anywhere for the selective places), in Catford Kilmorie is favoured as a primary, good secondary options especially for girls, There are popular primaries in Sydenham or near the Hornimann also with good secondary options for girls (I know less about the boys options, don't know if they exist or not), or in Streatham Hill for Streatham Wells, Hitherfield primary, or Julian's, all for the same secondaries, (Dunraven or Elmgreen) but all with particular catchments, in Brixton Sudbourne or Reay, St Judes for CoE, Corpus Christi for catholics, all excellent schools, as is Ashmole up by the Oval, from which secondary choices include Pimlico or Grey Coat.

These are all schools and routes my NCT ante-natal and tea group families have taken. Doubtless there will be others, I am not a comprehensive expert on state schools in S London! (despite having two children and a step child in the system)

It's tough when you had a bad experience at school. Something I have noticed is that the schools are much stricter now and they are all doing their best to improve both behaviour and results. With mixed success, of course.

Good luck to you, I hope you find the right answer in your search.

Some great advice on here, but from someone also living in a 'deprived' area of S London who has tried and tried to move into the catchment for some of the great schools that Indieskies lists, I sadly have to second FIoLondon and say that the polarisation is still overwhelming. Houses in the catchments tend to be so expensive that staying in the deprived area and paying for private is cheaper (though still crippling). It's ll very well to say move close to a good school in Dulwich etc. if you have 500k+ to spend on a family home. No idea what the OP's budget is, but hoping for her sake it's bigger than ours! And don't get me started on the shortage of decent secondaries for boys...

Mamatoo echo what poster said further down regarding richmond (good primary but over subscribed, secondary not so consistent ESP for boys). And housing is very expensive.
The commuter land idea sounds good as there are places a bit further out -
Surrey Kent croydon where friends
Live and have been happy with school/housing /commute balance

House prices anywhere in London are astronomical, and do, I agree, create polarisation.
Brixton houses are sky high, Dulwich off the scale (except for areas of West Dulwich which are in Charter catchment but no good primaries that I know of, but I could be wrong). Streatham still has opportunities, and Catford and W Norwood.

I must posted this elsewhere 3 bed in Streatham

We are not wealthy - we live in a scruffy 3 bed terrace, posssible because we were on the property ladder early.

It isn't easy.I agree. But that's different from accepting that all or most schools are crap because the 'ambitious parents move out to find middle class areas, leaving the less able/interested in the schools.' Apart from anything else plenty of families in the high density social housing in these areas are neither less interested nor less able!

I'm also generalising. The OP works in tertiary education. Unless she's a professor and assuming she's on the academic payscale, I can guess how much she's earning. As I was on it not that long ago. The pay for academia is very skewed in that it's almost the same the whole country round, and you get a very very small london allowance. We used to joke how great it is to be an academic in Sheffield! (There is a very respected group in my area in Sheffield University).

An option for her could be actually move out of london, where her salary could go a lot further.

Thank you! I do agree with you all about needing to consider demographics before moving. Don't have a huge budget but am sure the hunt for a place has to start soon. Moving out to commuter land is an option (book ordered ).
I could get out of London and get paid more but I am not sure about that as I have DH and his job to think about too. And no I am not a professor, yet. A few books short

It is partly true...if my pockets were very very deep private it would be. If they were kind of deep nice area it would be. But since saving a deposit is a daunting task in today's age...I have to find a balance which is why I seek advice and opinions. I do want the best for my child, knowing where that is, is the question.
I went to a catholic school run by patrician brothers of Ireland. It was a great school, I had a lively lovely time and have friends who have kept in touch over the years...I wish the same for my son. I just wish it was not so damn confusing and intimidating getting into the house/catchment/school knowledge game! :(

If anyone is considering SW London at all this might interest you???

Do you have children that will be starting school after Sept 2013 you might be interested in supporting our application for a new state primary school in the borough of Wandsworth. We really need local support for this amazing project. The school is a Jewish faith school but will be open to and will welcome families of all backgrounds.

www.sljps.org.uk/Register.html

Registering your details is simply to show your support for our application and this information will in no way affect any future school applications that you make.
Thanks
Mumptious

Fiolondon, yes, if you want to live somewhere with excellent transport options, want easy access to Central London but have to be realistic in looking for cheaper areas, , I would happily recommend areas of Lambeth as a place to find pockets of housing with access to very good state schools.

Some of the parents from our school are academics, we have a good lifestyle, the local school is good, the results are good.

I wouldn't advise every location and every school in Lambeth, but there are plenty that are very good. Lambeth as a whole produces results above the national average, even in the context of deprivation and many challenges.

There are cheaper pockets which would be in catchment for the majority of the schools I name above, which are good places for a less-than-minted m/c family to live.

We took a big gamble 14 years ago by moving to Sutton borough. In the end worked perfectly, i.e. both kids each of a different sex ae in grammar schools, both walking distance.

If I was to make the same decision now I would look towards Bromley as well.

Fio, see my post on this thread bearing in mind the OP had a £250k budget.
In the case of those 2 properties, West Norwood and Tulse Hill both have a very fast Thameslink connection as well as being 22 mins from London Bridge. Or a 10 min bus to Brixton and straight onto the Victoria line and a quick journey to Oxford Circus.

I live in this general area. DS's school has all the features you mention as being a focus in the book. More than 30% FSM etc, many home languages spoken by children, and to address a concern I have seen on MN, my DS is in a minority racially in his class.

This is the way it works: for each child who claims FSM the gvt or council give the school an extra amount of money. DS's school has a high number of TAs - 2 in every class up to yr 3, then one, and in addition a room in which children who need even more specialist attention are taught - sessions in this room include language, booster sessions, as well as enrichment groups. Children are NOT held back because of others who arrive with less fluency in English, and the occasional chaotic family is absorbed and does not cause overall disruption. Discipline in the school is fantastic and it has a wonderful friendly ethos. The academic achievement is excellent.

In DS's enrichment set the children reflect the overall mix of the school, from the high density social housing on one side of the school and the 'squeezed middle' mortgage payers on the other, the 2 outstandingly clever children in that group do not have English as a home language and their parents arrived as refugeees from E African countries. Friendships are mix and match across class, colour, language, religion - everything except girl / boy.

Our experience does not match the theory about deprivation = bad schooling.

People may prefer to live in suburban areas, and I daresay there are areas in the great commuter belts where it's easier to find a house/travel/school combination that fits. We prefer living closer in - and enjoy all that that offers.