Assessment and Creativity

[MDrake91]

Hello, I am currently writing my dissertation to become a Primary School Teacher.

I am writing specifically about the restriction testing has on creativity in the primary classroom. I am writing a chapter soley based on the perspective of the parents.

I would really appreciate any personal experiences with this topic from parents.

e.g. Does your child mind doing tests or do they frustrate them?
Do you feel that your child learns better through creative lessons?
Do you feel that regular testing, for example SATS, have helped your childs learning or helped yourself?
What is your personal opinion of the current primary education system and what changes would you make? (based the on the topic of creativity and assessment)
etc...

Thank you x

My son likes tests I do feel that creative lessons, such as Art or music, are seen as less important then Maths and English because they are not assessed as part of the SATS. Regular testing is important to monitor a child's progress but a balance needs to be made between the creative side and the subjects which are SATS related. In one school my son attended he did very little art, in one term he had one lesson. Music was just as bad. It seems a shame that schools do this as a child could be a talented artist but it could be so easily missed, leading to fustration.

what testing? you can hardly call Sats regular, it takes place in Ys 2 and 6! ok there is phonics in Y1 now too but I don't think there is a lot of obvious testing of children at least in state primary
of teachers now, that's a different matter

I think it's a very odd topic

I have no idea how often my kids get tested - I hope they're assessed an awful lot so that the teacher knows what they do and don't know.

I have no idea how often their lessons are creative - or what even that would mean.

I have no idea what lessons they learn best in - how would I?

I'm very glad I got a formal record of where they were at the end of Y2 - but that is not based on tests.

I have no problem with my DCs sitting SATs at the end of Y6 - again I get to see exactly where they are compared to where they should be.

The most important thing to me is that my children leaving primary school knowing the 3 Rs. Everything else is 'icing' to me.

In any school teachers will be continually assessing children every day every lesson even when it's done creatively

My son loved tests and could usually get maximum marks with little effort much easier than doing work in his opinion

Don't quite a lot of parents know what their children are good at?

Don't you know that your child is good at drawing because its drawings are recognisable or even inspiring? Don't you know that it's good at story writing because it writes great stories?

There's got to be some parental observation going on, surely.

As for testing? Surely the parents who have strong opinions either way can answer the questions about testing specifically, and parents who don't know or aren't sure can simply say so.

learnandsay - am I right in thinking your child is not at school yet?

What we are saying is that our kids are tested constantly and it doesn't interfere with their learning. It's rather scary that a trainee teacher is even wording the question in this way.

Unless the OP defines exactly what she means by testing and by a 'creative lesson' the question is impossible to answer.

Does she just mean Y6 SATS? I've answered that.

What is your personal opinion of the current primary education system and what changes would you make?

My personal opinion is that teacher training in this country can be very poor, and the best way to improve schools would be to improve teacher training (not just initial teacher training)

A well planned curriculum can be highly creative while fully preparing children for the statutory summative assessments as well as allowing for proper formative assessment. Sadly, formative assessment appears to be rarely done as well as it could be.

Hi MDrake91

Does your child mind doing tests or do they frustrate them?

DD1 (age 9) says she doesn't mind tests, unless they're really long and involve a lot of writing (like comprehension tests). DD1 is left-handed and finds a lot of writing a bit tiring because of her grip style.

DD2 (age 6) says she doesn't mind tests - but I don't think she really is tuned in to the fact she'll be doing SATs later this year.

Do you feel that your child learns better through creative lessons?

Absolutely! I think lessons that allow them to move about, cut and paste, draw or paint or even go outside seem to keep everybodies interest far better than sitting still inside an overly hot airless room all day. When they can see what they're learning has application in real life, I think that's when they get really interested.

Our school offers the same school trips year after year - even though we're in a major city with a huge University (with Museums on campus) & city Museums to visit, a zoo, etc... No we do the same art gallery once or twice a year for all classes. One Mum who has 5 kids, said if she has to come in and help on the gallery field trip again she may just go ahead a slit her wrists!

Many of us would happily give our eye teeth for field trips that link into learning. So I don't know going to the Space Museum near Leicester and then learning about the solar system in class and possibly discussing the process from the ancient Greeks onwards of working out the earth is round.

Do you feel that regular testing, for example SATS, have helped your childs learning or helped yourself?

I don't think it helps learning in the sense of a child understanding a concept. I think standardised SAT testing is about assuring the funders = so the government, tax payers (or parents paying for private education I suppose) = that the teaching is achieving the desired results.

One thing that deeply concerns me is that testing can be seen as teaching. DD1 was subjected to a weekly 10 minute maths test (called the 11s club) and each week she'd get the exact same test again until she got all the answers right and could move up a group (so 11s, 22s, 33s, etc...). The children weren't progressing - so the Y2 teacher sent the test sheet home for practice and, in desperation to demonstrate progress, she started to give the children twice the time to complete the test.

Toward the end of Y2 DD1 was unable to take 1 from 10 and the teacher's comment was that she was working to national curriculum and couldn't be expected to provide extra homework, she was too busy. When I suggested we'd be happy to use a workbook if she could recommend one - she told us that our DD1 was doing enough already and was working at the expected level. I've posted elsewhere about finding Mathsfactor. We're basically learning math at home in 1 hour to 1 1/2 hours a week. DD1 has progressed up the maths groups from Y3 onwards and was moved up to top group in Maths in Y4 this past November. Now we're hugely proud - but what on earth does this say about the general level of teaching & pupil progress at my kids school that we can be putting in essentially 1/5th of the 'numeracy hour' (as I understand it - it should be 1 hour per school day) the school is allegedly putting in to Y4 and she's zooming along. I find this deeply concerning. It is my understanding that at this point 26 out of 30 Y4 children in DD1's class do not know all their times tables to x10.

What is your personal opinion of the current primary education system and what changes would you make? (based the on the topic of creativity and assessment) etc...

I am amazed how angry and disappointed I feel about my girls education in the state system. My husband has very strong personal (grandfather was a teacher) and political beliefs that the state system should be supported, but even he has been shaken by how utterly rubbish many aspects of teaching/ provision have been our our DDs' school. The teachers aren't able (willing?) to identify children who aren't getting it and don't seem to give them enough attention to help them when they're slightly struggling. The nett result is that children just drift.

There seems to be a real hang up about giving homework. Foreign and better educated parents are desperate to see more homework coming home and more creative homework - but the school and many working parents (especially shift working parents) are strongly opposed to homework. We're pushing for 30 minutes of homework a night per week (so total 3.5 hours - which is what the government suggests) for years 5/6 and the school is insisting on 10 minutes homework + 20 minutes reading 5 nights a week (total 2.5 hours per week). Given that there is 11+ examinations and they will be streamed in senior school (state/ grammar/ private) by SATs performance & most likely further testing at the beginning of Y7 - this lack of homework reinforcing & solidifying learning seems disadvantageous.

The reality is children are not getting the practice/ reinforcement they so desperately need.

I think what I find most hard to understand is when so many children have both Mum and Dad working full-time, why doesn't our present education system accommodate that? Why aren't schools plugged into this? Why can't schools open around 8 a.m. (with breakfast club & possibly things like choirs/ homework clubs/ etc... occurring before official 9 a.m. start to school day) thereby allowing parents to head on into work. Why aren't schools open until around 6 p.m. (providing after care - such as a snack club, venue for things like boy scouts, rainbows/ girl scouts & for sports and other clubs - again homework clubs or booster clubs could be in place to help children get that practice in (and help those struggling to start that hard process of catching up). Again, if schools closed around 6 p.m. working Mums or Dads could a) work full-time and b) seemlessly fit in the school run with full-time standard 9-5 working days.

OK Yes, it will be more expensive. But isn't education about an investment in the national future? Isn't there a problem with teenagers hanging about unsupervised. Isn't there a problem with latchkey children? I also know many Mum's can't work or chose to be part-time because of the tyranny of the school day & the balance between wanting a working life and crippling childcare expenses.
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I do believe there is great and inspriring teaching out there - there is plenty of video evidence for best practice & inventive ideas on Teachers Media for example (i.e. the Good to Outstanding series). I think the paradigm of 'teacher knows all' needs to shift to 'teacher as facilitator of learning' - teacher who arms the student with the tools to go on and achieve. It may be allowing the talented sports player to have training during the school day, or staging a crime scene in a classroom for Y1 to investigate Goldigate. Inventive teaching in KS1/ KS2 is possible, it takes time, planning, imagination & a dash of dedication - these teachers who work at this high achieving level really ought to be benefiting financially. Because I don't see how we can motivate the rest to be as high achieving otherwise.

I'm not sure if you can change anything for the better MDrake91, but I sincerely wish you all the best of luck.

are you doing this to assay whether your questions are any good, or would yield fruitful lines for enquiry?

i ask because if on the other hand, you are intending to include any of these responses as data in your dissertation, you are being unethical if you rea not getting the informed consent of your participants

your university should be able to give you guidance on this

Hi MDrake91 and anyone who was intrigued by Creativity part of this thread:

I came across this video by Ken Robinson (responsible for the Robinson Report which I'm sure teachers/ educators are aware of) but this may be new to many so thought it worthwhile to post a link here

www.ted.com/talks/lang/en/ken_robinson_says_schools_kill_creativity.html

It starts slow - it is 20 minutes - but it really is worth thinking about.

Sir Ken Robinson's video is very old (5 or 6 years ) and things have changed in most schools since then Of course there were schools even then who were working creatively and schools even now who are uninspiring places.
Some people (teachers, parents, children) just aren't creative thinkers and I know people who are terrified by the whole concept and some people who just can't understand how you can be creative in maths for example.

If teachers really know their subject and have a passion for it, they can make it creative, fun and inspiring. That's what excellent teachers do.
However there are always going to be aspects of the curriculum that are a little repetitive or dry but that's part of the learning process, I'm afraid. If teachers feel they have to be all dancing performers ALL the time, children don't get used to sitting still, listening and concentrating. In other words, a mixture of creative activities and 'chalk and talk' sounds like a happy medium. If you look at a video of a maths lesson in Hungrary on teachers' TV, you will seee the children are sitting and listening to the teacher. They are all engaged and the lesson is fun!
Testing is the only way parents are told how their children are doing. Teachers very rarely tell parents anything about their child so at least tests let parents know where their child's strengths and weaknesses lie. I don't know whether they help in the end though - look at the teenagers for a start!

I don't think creativity excludes children sitting still, listening and concentrating any more than all singing and dancing equates to creativity. Creativity is about thinking

Yes, of course creativity is about thinking but to get children to really think they have to be taught something first - by a teacher, not a 'facilitator'. To expect children to work out thinngs all by themselves the whole time is ridiculous - but that's what the 'creative curriculum' is all about.

childrenthinking.co.uk/?page_id=25

?Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.?
Albert Einstein

Hi mrz:

Actually I think it is possible to be creative & imaginative - indeed I see them as quite similar traits/ forces in learning/ education.

I've just posted for a Mum who was asking for sites for an advanced 13 year old in maths - and given you've just asked how can you be creative - here are two examples:

Application of maths in sports: sport.maths.org/content/resources
A really inventive way of showing real life application of those dry maths methods/ facts.

Not sure if this will work - but if on Teacher's Media you type in Maths & Durham Cathedral you can see some amazing lessons by 'Dr Maths' (Steve Humble) on the mathematical princples underpinning the architecture of Durham Cathedral:

www.teachersmedia.co.uk/search?q=maths+%26+Durham+Cathedral

if that doesn't work try www.teachersmedia.co.uk and then type maths and Durham Cathedral in the search box.

Now I've seen some of your posts mrz - so I know full well in primary lessons you can be highly imaginative and creative and I suspect that encourages your students to be the same! I've often wished my kids had you as a teacher based on some of the things you've described.

However, I agree the skills of sitting quietly and thinking (reflecting), listening and observing are also very important. Indeed, how would we get all that fanscinating wildlife photography (in the wild or not) without that kind of patience.

In a world where everybody is different - a one method for all system is never going to be a comfortable fit. In fact I'm certain those primary school teachers I adored ane really thrived with must be related to how well I responded to their teaching style/ methods.

Not sure if you mean the children don't have time to be creative OP or that the NC and testing mean that teachers don't have the oppotunity to be creative?

Re children - my view as a parent is that they have far too much time "being creative" - three weeks solid making paperchains and sprinkling glitter in the run up to christmas, and no there weren't any hidden maths or literacy topics hiding behind the toilet-roll santas. Half a term of Ukalalee lessons - I kid you not, ooh and lets not forget the total waste of time that the last two weeks of the summer term are, bit of sport, lots of colouring-in.

As for teachers being creative I honestly wish they didn't feel the need to try.
Our school is cluttered with rubber stress balls, lolly-sticks, marble jars and every other motivational / behaviour control gizmo known to man - but never the possibility a teacher could simply tell a child off.
Three of the four teachers are young and very bouncy, choir has been turned into a "Sing Up" national competition (just more driving kids round to venues out of school hours), after school dance and gardening clubs have become in-school compulsory sujects (three kids with black finger-nails and PE kits that you have to get scrubbed and dryed ready for the next morning) it goes on and on, every "new initive" just makes me love the one old, crotchety, by the book and bash em with it if they don't behave teacher we have left.

I agree about the zillions of initiatives and too little traditional teaching. I know I am old fashioned but I do think there is still room for learning by rote and digesting information.

One thing I worry about is that after so much exciting learning, will the children actually have the tools and the ability to knuckle down and learn loads of information as required for A-levels, university but most importantly work related vocational and professional qualifications? Will they always feel they have to use their imagination/be creative/have excitement in order to sit down and learn?

I have to do regular professional exams and have to go through so many books of dry, uninspiring information - I guess I am lucky I went to a "beat them up with a stick" school and don't think much of it, I wonder how this generation would cope......I guess they would have to get used to it eventually....

Imagination is IMPORTANT as well as creativity but do you think all children are automatically creative? They have to have the world opened up to them by a creative and inspiring teacher who KNOWS stuff! What is wrong with having teachers who KNOW things???? Or don't you know much, Mrz?
rosemaryandthyme - I totally understand where you're coming from! What is wrong with just telling a child off? And what a complete waste of time the last three weeks of the autumn term is! Your school sounds like my daughter's school and in the end the middle classes are fine because they pay loads for tutors etc. Great system.
onceinawhile - teachers can teach knowledge in an inspiring way! Not all traditional teachers just stand there for the whole time talking. Every time we have this debate there is an assumption that traditional teaching is all about giving a child lines to copy from the board the whole lesson! That's just silly. There needs to be a balance but there shouldn't be a fear of teaching children things that are not relevant to them. You can't just teach children what they are interested in! Isn't the whole point of going to school is to be told things you wouldn't normally know/appreciat/understand?
My husband teaches in a traditional style but his pupils love it because they learn and he's so enthusiastic they get enthusiastic too! One pupil sai to him, " I love your lessons sir because you teach us stuff. Mrs X just expects us to teach ourselves!"

I think imagination and creativity go hand in hand whether it is creativity in art or science, engineering, literature or any other aspect of life.
I know lots of things magdalene you would definitely want me as your phone a friend on Millionaire, but knowing things is not as important as how you use that knowledge ... or don't you use your knowledge?

onceinawhile my class learn times tables by rote they learn poetry they learn number bonds they learn how to spell they learn how to write and a thousand other things but it doesn't stop us being imaginative and creative or thoughtful

Mrz - No, I don't use all my knowledge - do you, as a primary school teacher? And I'm glad you don't see learning times tables and poetry by rote as evil. The reality is that lots of teachers don't like teaching anything by rote for fear of boring the children!

Now did I say all ?

My class are never bored when acquiring new knowledge they realise it's a great gift.

But will ofsted give you a grade 1 for that kind of teaching, Mrz? because we all know that teachers have to 'perform' for ofsted and end up doing lessons they don't normally teach!

Do I rate a grade 1 from Ofsted as worth having?
Sorry but I don't change for Ofsted and they have always been happy