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Primary education

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Lower ability pupils can't catch up

180 replies

learnandsay · 15/12/2011 13:39

Doesn't it depend on what you mean by catch up? I'm not familiar with Levels and SATs scores. But isn't the point that some schools don't seem to have a strategy for getting all pupils to reach the top level (Level 5) in 3Rs?

Surely some schools start with children who can't even speak English. Presumably those children are harder to teach than the ones who can already read, write to-some-extent and multiply by the time they start Reception.

I also notice that some initially well performing children leave primary school performing poorly. (I'm pretty sure this is a parental-inclusion problem) ie it's the parents and the school's fault not the child's.

Schools performances

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IndigoBell · 17/12/2011 14:17

Finland is 100% phonetic - and it still fails 6% of it's students. I wouldn't call that good or inclusive. 6% is a lot of illiterate kids.

But no, I don't think we should be comparing ourselves with Korea or Finland. I think it is only fair to compare ourselves with the English speaking countries.

So I would be interested to know more about how Canada does things. But I think it varies state to state (both school starting age, and teaching methods).

dolfrog · 17/12/2011 14:23

IndigoBell
"No, dolfrog does not believe in any early intervention at all. We have had this discussion over many threads, and his views are absolutely unbelievable."

You as always miss represent what I say.

There are various ways of identifying areas of learning deficit, which tend to be ignored by those who work in the education sector. Even at a young age. Much of the early identification of these deficits should be based on a genetic or family history, which means that biological parents have to be honest and open about their own differences, deficits and disabilities; rather than go into denial and seek any acceptable alternative source of blame for the problems their child is experiencing. You once told me that "You have a disability" well yes I have clinically diagnosed disability, which is shared by all of my family, and we understand each others deficits and do not go out looking for magic cures, trying to find and outside cause of the problems we face. So from the nature of your posts I can only assume that your husbands family share the same genetic issues as your children.
Unless you are able to identify the specific nature of a disability, then is it not possible to define any form of recommended cure or therapy which may not interfere with a child's natural development processes until the age of maturation. There are many program providers who only want to sell their services to provide a program, and who have no real long term interest in your child, and have any understanding of the full range of issues your child may have, nor have any understanding of any damage that the program they are providing may cause.

There is a great need for joined up thinking between the various types of medical professionals, and educational professionals to create a peer reviewed understanding of the full range of disabilities which can affect our learning capabilities in line wit the international peer reviewed body of research. Research is always improving the understanding of these issues, and professionals need to be able to say that they currently do not have a full understanding of a specific issue (rather than create their own one off answer, or avoid the issue altogether.)

So if formal education does not begin until after the age of maturation, children are allowed to develop in their own time, and after this age, any remaining developmental problems can be clinically diagnosed assess form of disability. As many have mentioned nursery education ends when formal education begins.

So in our family we have been aware of our childrens learning deficits, and disabilities, and spent hours, days, months, and years researching the issues to help us understand the nature of the problems, so that we can explain and discuss our childrens support needs from the moment they entered the education system. spending money on magic cures is not the answer, more about understanding the full nature of the problem and understanding how to provide the best practical support.
And for children who have these types of genetic disabilities, it is the parents who share the disabilities who are best able to provide the best advice as to how best to work around the problem. The biggest problem here is getting the biological parents to admit their own deficits which they have spent their lives trying to hide from their peers, employers, and extended family.

gabid · 17/12/2011 14:28

Well, Germany and Portugal have pretty phonetic languages and they fare quite badly.

So I think it would be a good idea to look at all countries who do well. You couldn't compare like for like, but still.

mrz · 17/12/2011 14:31

Korea has a much longer school day/year than UK state schools and a much more prescriptive curriculum ... and "remedial classes" for those falling behind

Sweden's curriculum is very flexible with just broad guidelines teachers only teach for 4 hours a day and teaching has a high status ... 30% of pupils will receive additional support in school in the first 9 years of school.

gabid · 17/12/2011 14:40

The Swedish system sounds good! Would there be anything the UK could learn/take on and try out.

4 hours of teaching, hm. Do they have better methods and teacher training?

mrz · 17/12/2011 14:56

More teachers

mrz · 17/12/2011 14:58

sorry I typed Sweden and meant Finland (Sweden is another thread on a different forum and I obviously can't multi task)

dolfrog · 17/12/2011 15:00

Country by country comparisons hide the underlying issues.
There are a range of cognitive disabilities which exists as part of human nature regardless of the communication system each society may choose to use.
So there will always be those who have an auditory processing disorder, a visual processing disorder, an attention disorder or come combination of disabilities which make various forms of communication difficult or impossible.

There are different writing systems which range from the purest logographic single graphic symbol to represent descriptive sound of speech, or word, to the most complex alphabet writing systems, which have multiple graphic symbols to represent the sounds of speech, words. And there are many other writing systems of varying complexity. And then within each writing system, there are various languages who have different ways of using the graphic symbols of the writing system to represent the sounds of speech. We use the Latin Alphabet writing system, and the purest languages are Italian and Finnish, and the most complex is English, again with languages of varying complexity inbetween the two extremes.

Those who designed the writing systems, and the use their preferred languages make them match their own specific communication cognitive needs, which is peculiar to their own learning needs. So unless all who need to use this communication system are clones of language designers, there will always be some who for a wide range of reasons do not have the ideal cognitive skill set to use their societies chosen language, and there will be others who may have a cognitive disability which further complicates using a specific language.

gabid · 17/12/2011 15:02

So more teachers and smaller class sizes I assume - well, here we go, that is expensive!

bruffin · 17/12/2011 15:06

"Finland is 100% phonetic - and it still fails 6% of it's students. I wouldn't call that good or inclusive. 6% is a lot of illiterate kids."

I worked for the largest company in finland for 6 years, the outcome are robots who are brilliant in their own narrow field but have difficulty if you throw a spanner in the works. There is far more to education than just reading and writing.

mrz · 17/12/2011 15:07

There is no set class size at primary age

mrz · 17/12/2011 15:10

Children with SEN aren't fully integrated as in the UK. It is common for children to have part time SEN education and part time mainstream and approx 5% attend special schools full time

IndigoBell · 17/12/2011 15:38

Sorry, I've let Masha muddle me.

We don't need to learn from different countries. We need to learn from the schools in the UK who do teach very well.

Reading by 6: how the best schools do it

dolfrog · 17/12/2011 15:43

bruffin
it goes with the phonics methodology, of not developing the skills to guess and take risks, and investigate alternatives. The phonics methodology trains children to slavishly learn a set sequential way of thinking, to only perform specific task. Phonics produces more robots, and hyperlexics those who can decode text but have very little idea about the content they have read. Which is probably why there has been a increase in research into what is being described as comprehension disability in recent months

IndigoBell · 17/12/2011 15:46

That is the funniest post I've read in a long time.

mrz · 17/12/2011 15:49

Phonics requires children to investigate alternatives surely

Olympias · 17/12/2011 16:12

"We don't need to learn from different countries." - I think this attitude goes a long way to explain the ongoing failure to fix the primary education problems in the UK.

Olympias · 17/12/2011 16:17

"it goes with the phonics methodology, of not developing the skills to guess and take risks, and investigate alternatives. The phonics methodology trains children to slavishly learn a set sequential way of thinking, to only perform specific task. Phonics produces more robots, and hyperlexics those who can decode text but have very little idea about the content they have read. Which is probably why there has been a increase in research into what is being described as comprehension disability in recent months" -
Really? Italy, Spain, Russia, etc - I wonder how all the scientists, artists, inventors born and raised in this countries overcame such a massive obstacle.

mrz · 17/12/2011 16:22

Olympias Sat 17-Dec-11 16:12:25

"We don't need to learn from different countries." - I think this attitude goes a long way to explain the ongoing failure to fix the primary education problems in the UK.

I think we need to look to other countries success but emulating their methods may not be the best way to improve. What works in one culture can not be transported piece meal to another to replicate results. Rather we should learn and adapt

Olympias · 17/12/2011 16:33

What I meant mostly - It would be good if the UK educators looked carefully into other countries methods and THEN critically, with a fresh eye try to look at their own methods. I am saying that because I've got an impression that some things are continued to be done the way they are , just because it's been this way for a long time. I.e. my personal pet peeve - super early beginning of the formal education in this country.

IndigoBell · 17/12/2011 16:43

Olympias - no one has the power to change things like the school starting age. Not even the prime minister can make that happen.

Every teacher and HT and SENCO can improve their own school.

So what I meant about not looking at other countries, was that we should concentrate on the things we can actually achieve, rather than having endless theoretical debates.

So, unless you actually work for the dept of education you'd be better to concentrate on improving your own children, or your own school.

mrz · 17/12/2011 16:56

Schools, teachers and educationalists have certainly been looking at other countries in the last decade Olympias.
EYFS has strong links to both the Swedish and Reggio Emilia pedagogy historically High Scope was adopted from the USA with limited success.
Interestingly other countries are envious of our methods and the nice gentle start children have to education

IndigoBell · 17/12/2011 16:58

And of course academies come from both Sweeden and the US :)

Olympias · 17/12/2011 17:04

"no one has the power to change things like the school starting age. Not even the prime minister".
Really? I thought you guys were a democracy.

So you are telling me that if study after study (like the one done in Cambridge a couple of years ago - www.lifesitenews.com/news/archive/ldn/2009/oct/09102105)
will show that the early start negatively affects those kids that are not ready, and if people as a result demand that the government looks into it, it is NOT POSSIBLE to change the situation. Wow.

IndigoBell · 17/12/2011 17:08

It's not possible. It'll have huge financial implications across the whole economy.

Thousands of teachers would lose their jobs.

Thousands of people would be unable to work because they couldn't afford childcare.

So it would be bad for the economy.

It's not possible.