What does differentiation constitute in your dc's school?

[nicknamealreadyinuse]

At ours it seems to be that there is a top, middle and bottom approach at most...two or three tiers and any outliers at either end of the scale get lumped in with their group's level (barring severe special needs). Anyone not statemented but behind the lowest ability group seems to be stuck trying to keep their head above water in the bottom group, even if it's beyond them, whilst a child working above the top group level treads water as they are lumped in with whatever level the top group work at. Is this normal, is it indeed inevitable in a class of 30?

in ds's class of 30 there are always 4 levels and usually 5 levels (especially for numeracy) set by the teacher. She has recently begun a 6th super-low level for a very high-need group in the class. An additional statemented level exists separately from that, and those children are not in the classroom very much.

The very top level seems pretty good to me but I have no other experience to compare it with.

I think she's an amazing teacher but I have to say she is tearing her hair out over it all.

How do you know this? Do you have twins at either end of the scale?

Or is this post really about you being worried that your DC is falling behind and isnt being properly supported?

You can't tell how thing are being done in the classroom unless you're in there. There are so many ways to differentiate that knowing what group your child is in tells you nothing.

In what way are you meaning differentiation?
The visible one, which seems to be the only sort that many parents understand;
'My child is in the top group of 5'
Mine is in the fourth group, but she really shouldn't be'

Or do you mean the more subtle forms of differentiation; by support, by task, by different expectations of the outcome, by the support materials created or used to scaffold the work, by partnering or talk buddies, by the verbal questions given and the assessment of the response?
I plan for 5 levels of differentiation in class, including G & T and SEN (one of my SEN is also G & T, one is in the middle ability wise but needs specific support materials.
But on the surface, they may all be writing a story.

5 levels and extra support for children who needed it (ds was regularly given support with writing).

DD's school stream from year 1 onwards. DD1 is in year 6, 2 streams for lit, num and science and within each stream there are 5 groups, so when you look at it from a broader perspective there are 10 ability groups.

DD2 is in a mixed year 3/4 class, 3 streams for lit and num, I think 5 groups within each stream, so 15 groups.

Think that's pretty good differentiation.

Indigo - can't go into details too much but I have been in the classroom a fair bit and also see with my own child's work that dc is working below the level they imho could do. I have firm evidence. On the other hand I've also seen dc's who are below the level of the bottom group getting no help and disengaging in class. Also heard about similar from other parents at both ends of the scale in other year groups.

Maybe a more constructive question would be to ask teachers in classes of 30 whether this is the norm? I feel it's a big ask for teachers to differentiate so finely and not their fault in big classes but maybe some manage it?

Yes, teachers teaching a class of 30 can differentiate properly for every child in the class. And they definitely should.

There have been inspiring posts on here loads of times, but I think some of the posts from SE13 were the ones that stuck in my head the most. (Apologies if it was some other fantastic teacher :) )

Some of the best teachers like mrz don't have ability tables at all, and can differentiate better that way.

Sounds like something you need to talk about with your teacher or HT - but only in the context of your child, not in the context of other children.

My older children are Y6 and Y4 .

I have experienced the same as you in that ability groups mean that the DC on that table are expected to learn at the same speed.

Both children had a year when the teachers sat the children at mixed ability tables and it worked surprisingly well. They progressed at their own pace rather than the table's and all children on the table understood that they all had different targets and that expectations and work were not the same.

Currently my children are at a 1 form entry school and they are 6 groups of 5. Their last school was 2 form entry and they merged classes for literacy and numeracy. There were 5 groups of 6 in 2 streams so 10 lots of differentiation.

The only simple top-middle-bottom differentiation was for spellings.

The "system" at DDs' school is:

KS2 - two classes per year group. For literacy and maths, they have divided the whole year group into two classes by ability in each subject. So they each have three "classes" - their form group, their literacy class and their maths class. Literacy and maths classes are ability based - one lower and one higher. Within each, there are three or four ability groups, making up to eight ability groups in total.

I don't know how they cater for anyone that is off either end of the scale. DD1 is in the top group of the top for both subjects and seems sufficiently challenged. Differentiation includes things like making higher ability groups do similar tasks, but in a shorter timescale, or giving them less information about how to go about a problem, so they have to work it out for themselves.

For topic work and everything else, they are in their own classes and often put in mixed ability groups, not necessarily with people they normally mix with, to help with skills in team-building etc.

KS1 - Similar arrangement for maths. For literacy they are following the Read, Write, Inc scheme, which divides all the pupils who aren't yet at level 2 (I think) into small groups, strictly by ability. So there are groups which have children from four different year groups. Once they have "graduated" from RWI, they are in literacy groups within their own year group. I don't think they have enough children off the RWI scheme to have a wide range of ability yet!

DD is off the bottom end of the scale. She is very well supported - frequently too well supported, and I've had to have many conversations with school about letting her do her own work. :)

DS1 is off the top end of the scale. He's less well supported - but he also needs less support. If he's bored at school, he plays up finds other ways to occupy himself. His learning isn't held back by not learning anything at school.

I'll never forget the look on DS2's NQT teachers face when DS1s experienced teacher admitted he didn't teach him anything last year :) He described DS1 as an 'independent learner'

On Friday afternoons he sometimes let DS1 teach the class though :) DS1 loved that.

You have every right to expect your child to be taught at the right level for them - but at the same time, not every minute of every day needs to be challenging.

Our kids go to a state school with mixed age classes with 8-10 kids in each year group. Differentiation is done on an individual basis. There'll be group teaching (where sometimes one or two children might be given a different activity - usually the higher-achieving child doing something by themselves, or maybe one of the children struggling in that subject having time with a TA or volunteer). And when the children are sitting working at tables there might be 4 or 5 different spins on the work depending on the ability of the child in that subject.

DS1 goes to the year group above for some activities, and sometimes works on the computer when the rest of the class are having carpet time. DS2 is a bit behind the others with his writing and he gets things tailored for him. But he's way ahead on his reading, so works on a different basis there.

So differentiation is, for each lesson, the teacher saying "you and you do this, you three sit over there and do that, you come here and do this with me, and you go to the next door classroom to join that." Works well so far. :o

I agree Indigo with your last statement and don't think it would be realistic to expect every moment to challenge every child. It's not a bad thing either for them to be bored sometimes.

Love the idea of your ds teaching the others! Did the real teacher sit back and have a cup of tea on Friday afternoons whilst he did that? Maybe it will inspire your ds to be a teacher.

I have been bothered by what I've seen at both ends of the scale. Differentiation seems to involve giving the same workbook to a whole group ime there. This particularly worried me with a couple of children in the bottom group who just had no hope of doing the page of work they'd been given.

At the other end of the scale, in reading, one child has a level 2 years above the rest of the top group but is still in with them.

Workbooks! They're not a great idea. Nor are they very common in state schools.

Reading - do you mean guided reading? I don't think you all need to be at the same 'level' to read the same book. In guided reading the teacher will be asking harder questions to the better reader.

But even without different questions, different kids will take different things away from the same book. Many adults enjoy Harry Potter - which is a children's book :) And many kids enjoy the Hobbit :)

Does sound like you have cause for concern. Do you think it's just this teacher who's like this? Or the whole school ethos?

My impression is it's the whole school ethos. This was mentioned in the last two ofsted reports - lack of challenge for brightest kids etc.
Not sure the head is very into G&T type stuff as she has made a few comments to this end. Can't do much about the lowest ability kids situation as I can only address that for my dc but that worries me and makes me sad for those children.

I will have a chat with this year's teacher in the new year, of the 'I just wanted to find out more about what dc is doing in class' variety at first - won't pile in and accuse her of not challenging when I don't know absolutely for sure.

Knowing what I know now - I would change schools if you can.

You can't change a whole school ethos. Most schools will be better than what you describe.

It's not going to be just the 'lack of challenge' that's wrong with this school. It's just that which you have noticed the most. Pastorally kids need to be differentiated for as well as academically.....

If you don't give half the class appropriate work - there will be behavioural problems. (More so as they get older and bigger)

Plus as they move up the school, a disproportionate amount of time will be spent on the kids who have been left behind lower down the school.....

Certainly within foundation phase at our school (up to year 2 as in Wales, and all classes have 2 year groups as small village school) there is movement even between classes to make sure each child is catered for at the right level. e.g. DS2 is in a nursery/reception class but goes to the Yr1/2 class for group reading. Equally some children from YR1/2 go back to nursery/reception classroom for some lessons.
Any very bright children (2% of school) are on the SEN register and get very differentiated learning for their particular areas of ability. Don't know how they do that - they certainly aren't my children!

What quite a few of us don't understand is how this school got 'good' in its ofsted report.

That's a depressing thought Indigo as dc very happy and has lovely friends. Maybe if we can get the governors to listen the head might be booted out??!

Wow Little MIss that sounds fantastic for the bright ones. Not so sure how it must feel to be sent to reception for year 1s and 2s?

The head will never be booted out. No way. There is a huge shortage of HTs nationwide, and you could easily be in a position of not being able to employ another one.

I don't know why you got 'good'. Either it's because OFSTEDs rubbish :) Or because we're both wrong and there isn't that much wrong with the school. :)

Your other choice is to not worry about it. To decide your DC is happy and has friends, and that's more important than getting appropriate work in class. I know lots of people who have made this decision - and not regretted it.

Your last para is reassuring and for now I must keep a level head and focus on that as dc is actually progressing fine, just not due to what goes on in class, and isn't complaining of boredom. It frustrates me as it's such a second rate education and other state schools manage better. There is an army of tutors parents pay for in the junior school and the school then surfs off the back of that.

My DDs are at different schools which have different numbers of groups, but there is a lot of differentiation within the groups too. DD1's maths group ranges in ability from a 4C to a 5A - and that's the top group. So there needs to be differentiation, and it seems to be very well managed.

The same applies to DD2's school, but they have the option of grouping across year groups too, which means that DD2 does maths in a mixed Yr4/YR5 group, all working towards 4B by the end of the year. In English she and two others work separately because nothing else works, they are all Yr4s but are a long way ahead of the Yr 5 top group - DD2 is really being stretched in her reading and writing.

The school also has teachers trained in specialist SN - one is an expert on working with ASD, another has had training on sensory and motor problems, and the progress they get is stunning.

These are both normal state schools. I know how lucky I am.