Please or to access all these features

Add post

Watch this thread

Save thread

Start a new thread

Flip thread

Hide thread

My feed

Active Unanswered threads

Getting started FAQ's

Unanswered threads Acronyms Talk guidelines

Hide shortcut buttons

Talk

Primary education

Join our Primary Education forum to discuss starting school and helping your child get the most out of it.

Flip

Original poster

Precision Teaching

22 replies

tiredteddy · 12/12/2011 16:07

I have a meeting with the Educational Psychologist on weds about DS1 age 7, year 3 to discuss his observation and the the plans they have to use precision teaching. What is it?

OP posts:

Are your children’s vaccines up to date?

Set a reminder

IndigoBell · 12/12/2011 16:17

MoonDog is the expert on it.

It can be very good.

I can't explain it - only describe it

It's about measuring how much you can do in a minute, and then trying to increase the amount you can do in a minute.

So lots of measuring whether or not your child is improving - which is a good thing :)

For example, what does it actually mean to say that your child can read?

Well, it might mean, being able to read 30 CVC words a minute...... then when your child can read CVC words you'd move on to your next goal - but still stick to 30 words a minute....

The philosophy behind it is all 'practice makes perfect' (as far as I understand :) )

What is your DS struggling with?

(I don't necessarily agree with 'practice makes perfect' though - it depends why your child is struggling)

Original poster

tiredteddy · 12/12/2011 16:41

Well he is a late July birthday so very young in his year and also left handed. He is in year 3. the teachers feel that his reading is far behind his ability in other areas. The think he is articulate and well behaved and don't have concerns about his concentration. They have told me that they feel that he can do all the parts of reading but not put it together to be a fluent reader. He has had a lot of support. I met with the senco at the beginning of this school year and she said they felt they had explored every avenue/ approach with him and he was still struggling so she wanted to involve ed psych. He was observed in class two weeks ago. I just wanted to know what the precision teaching was all about so I could ask relevant questions on weds.

OP posts:

IndigoBell · 12/12/2011 16:51

Getting an EP in to assess is as rare as hen's teeth. They have not done so because he is a July birthday or because he is left handed.

They must have huge concerns about his reading to get the EP in.

It's very unusual to get an EP in just for poor reading.

What level did he get at the end of Y2?

I'm not a huge fan of precision teaching for struggling readers :) (Though a lot of people are)

mrz · 12/12/2011 16:56

We use precision teaching as an intervention in maths to develop fluency/speed of recall
www.aminuteaday.co.uk/PDFs/Mad_Maths_Ex1.pdff

Original poster

tiredteddy · 12/12/2011 17:02

Oops was just trying to describe him with the age info!

They seemed to imply that they thought he either had processing difficulties or that they were querying dyslexia. He had a lot of small group and 1:1 support throughout year 2 and again this year. There is quite a lot of dyslexia in the family both my side and DH and was wondering if I should be asking for diagnostic testing?

OP posts:

IndigoBell · 12/12/2011 17:06

If you want a diagnosis of dyslexia you should ask the EP to diagnose it. The EP will be testing for it (just may well not mention the d word in his report)

Your child does have dyslexia. Because the defn of dyslexia is 'struggling to learn to read and / or write despite adequate teaching'

(There isn't actually a test for dyslexia)

So there is no question at all that your child has dyslexia. The question is, what are you going to do about it?

School have already told you they don't know what to do. The EP won't know any more than school does. (After all the school will have already seen loads of EP reports, and will have already tried all of those ideas on your DS)

maizieD · 12/12/2011 17:08

I used precision teaching with a pupil who had great difficulty in recalling the 'advanced code' letter/sound correspondences. The intention was to promote automatic recall so as to make decoding and blending words easier. It did work to an extent but it really needs to be done daily, which I wasn't able to do. To make up for the lack of daily practice I asked him to practice at home - I think we'd have been more even successful if he'd done as I asked!

I don't think it would work particularly well for reading if learning the letter/sound correspondences to automaticity is not the first 'task' undertaken with the technique. Don't expect much improvement if the school starts with whole words as a focus (as I have seen done...).

IndigoBell · 12/12/2011 17:14

Maizie - is precision teaching any different to using flashcards and recording the results?

Original poster

tiredteddy · 12/12/2011 17:21

Oh dear.
My gut instinct is that he is dsylexic and as you say Indigo he is struggling to learn to read.

I would hope that the EP has some ideas and strategies that the school hasn't tried. What else should I be doing? Are there books to read? Should I be looking into getting a tutor?

MaizieD it sounds like precision teaching may not be the best way to tackle this?
I will make sure that I ask how often they will be doing this program with him and whether if that is not daily it will be beneficial?

Thanks for your advice everyone. I just want to know what I should be doing to help him. His SATs reading level was 2c but the new teacher seems much more concerned about him than the teacher last year who kept saying he was young, give him time. Now I am worried that there is a much bigger problem.

OP posts:

mrz · 12/12/2011 17:21

We use Minute a day sheets so the child has to say all the sounds/numbers/answer all the calculations/read all the words /times tables... in 1 minute before moving onto the next sheet

I use the flash card challenge on phonics play with my class which I suppose is precision teaching.

maizieD · 12/12/2011 17:23

I think it is the timing and charting of results which is the key element. I'm not sure if how the information to be learned is presented is crucial.

I used a 'chart' with the target graphemes on because it was less unwieldy than fumbling with flash cards!

I'm going to look at mrz's link shortly to see how the maths is done...

maizieD · 12/12/2011 17:26

Aaahhh. mrz's link doesn't work unless you take out the superfluous 'f' from .pdf

IndigoBell · 12/12/2011 17:27

This is my take on dyslexia

Problems learning to read are caused by one or more of the following problems:

Vision problems (the most common)
Auditory problems (the hardest to test for)
Dietary problems (the easiest to solve :) )
Neuro-development problems.

All of the above are curable. Just takes a lot of time, money and patience.

Extra tuition won't help - if it would, then school could help him.

A 2c is a fine result - so it's all a bit odd TBH.

IndigoBell · 12/12/2011 17:32

You have to remember that school and EPs can only recommend educational strategies.

So they can't help with a single thing in my list. :)

maizieD · 12/12/2011 17:36

MaizieD it sounds like precision teaching may not be the best way to tackle this?

It all depends on how it is done! If it is focussed on 'word learning' then it probably isn't much help.

In order to read a child must learn to automatically link 'sounds' to a letter or group of letters and automatically try the alternatives for letters which spell more than one sound. They can then use skill this for decoding and blending words. It could be that a child has huge difficulty in getting words into 'sight' memory (i.e that they have decoded and blended a word often enough to be able to apparently recognise it 'instantly'). If they know their correspondences to automaticity they will always be able to work out what any word 'says' even if it isn't in 'sight memory'; albeit rather labouriously. If they only 'learn' a few hundred discrete words they still won't be able to work out the ones they don't know and will still be reading 'disabled'.

I, frankly, don't know of any other way to promote independent and reasonable competent reading.

Original poster

tiredteddy · 12/12/2011 17:41

Right.

Vision. He has had his eyes tested last year and fine then. I shall organise a retest as well.
Auditory, he has had the usual school assessment in reception which he passed. 3. Diet. He eats a good balanced diet plenty of fruit and veg. What should I be looking for?
Neuro-development. What should i be asking? Doing?

Luckily for DS I have time, money and patience.

IndigoBell, you seem to be suggesting that I need to do more, please tell me what?

OP posts:

Original poster

tiredteddy · 12/12/2011 17:44

MaizieD
Thanks your explanation is really helpful. I will see what they say on Wednesday. I can see that it may help depending on where in his understanding my DS's troubles lay.

OP posts:

IndigoBell · 12/12/2011 17:47

Maizie - I accept that what you describe is more or less the best way to teach reading.

Except I think that you should solve the underlying problems first, then it'll be simple to teach a child to read. :)

That if a child is having difficulties learning to read, you should try and work out why, rather than continue with more of the same which hasn't worked.

That if you don't solve the underlying problems your child may learn to read - but always struggle with reading.

So, we're just talking about timing. Fixing their vision before teaching them to blend. :)

IndigoBell · 12/12/2011 17:51

Vision - opticians don't test for the kind of vision problems that causes difficulties learning to read. In theory you need a behaviour optometrist to test his eye tracking and convergence and other stuff - in practice they vary, and some BOs are far better than others.

Auditory - again I'm not talking about the standard test :)

Could easily be deficient in omega, zinc and magnesium. Could be eating all sorts of sweeteners, additives and e-nums which are causing him problems. Could be having too much sugar. Could struggle with gluten......

Retained Reflex Therapy or Tinsley House

My top recommendation is Tinsley House. Stage 1 of the TH program is described in The Brain Food Plan

I have written more about all of this here - but not updated it for a while.

Original poster

tiredteddy · 12/12/2011 17:58

Thanks indigo I will have a proper look at all of your links. You have given me lots to think about. I am going to wait til may boys are in bed then have a good read .

OP posts:

maizieD · 12/12/2011 19:11

Except I think that you should solve the underlying problems first, then it'll be simple to teach a child to read.

You know that I more or less agree with you!

It's just that in a school context that is the best approach to trying to help a child with a reading difficulty if they have memory problems or they are just plain ABT (Aint Been Taught); and I can assure you that many are just that...

That if a child is having difficulties learning to read, you should try and work out why, rather than continue with more of the same which hasn't worked.

In this particular case we don't know what 'the same' actually is. If it's multi-cueing then concentration on phonics very often does the trick. On the other hand, if it is multi-cueing then the school isn't likely to do anything different

It would be quite helpful to know tt's child's instructional history.

IndigoBell · 12/12/2011 19:43

:) I think we actually have consensus :)

School should do phonics with your child every day - hopefully this is what the EP will recommend. It can be done via precision teaching or any other method, it probably doesn't matter.

If school are doing phonics, then you should do all the things at home that school can't do. Which is everything else :)

Flip