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Primary education

Join our Primary Education forum to discuss starting school and helping your child get the most out of it.

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Original poster

Going backwards measured by SAT levels - should I be asking why?

60 replies

MrAlbertoFrog · 12/12/2011 13:27

Ds is in year 6 and has been in the 'top sets' of a large primary school for the last few years.
He has recently done a piece of assessed english work (involved continuing a story from a given paragraph) and was told he was working at a 3b level. He was very upset at this (as the whole class were talking about their levels and his was low compared to most of his friends) so we spoke to his teacher who insisted that he was 'where he is meant to be' and that he was expected to reach 4b by the end of the school year. This was pretty meaningless to me as I am/was not fluent in SAT levels but I looked at his end of year report for last year and he was assessed as '4b with his reading skills achieving higher than this'.

So, should I be asking school why he has gone backwards? Is this a normal occurrence due to teachers marking work differently?

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IndigoBell · 12/12/2011 13:33

You should be asking!

It doesn't necessarily mean that your child has gone backwards, nor that your child is a 3b (they've only said that one piece of work was a 3b).

It could be a problem with the school's marking and moderating. But if so, it should be addressed.

So don't care too much, don't get in a strop about it, but do ask. :)

AbigailS · 12/12/2011 13:43

The assessment was based on a single piece of writing, so maybe that indivdual piece was at 3b. Maybe he just didn't show all his writing skills (i.e. produce evidence of higher level skills). There is a difference between assessing / levlling a single piece of writing and your child as a writer by using several pieces of writing.

Original poster

MrAlbertoFrog · 12/12/2011 13:47

Thanks IndigoBell - I'm trying to compose a note to his teachers to ask what is going on without being stroppy!

I'm mainly worried because he is so upset and he has had problems with anxiety leading to self-harming in the past. When we met with his teacher she was using that piece of work as a marker for his progress rather than say to us 'it's just one piece of work which wasn't representative of his general level.'
From what I've been reading since it seems that 3b to 4b is over a year's amount of 'progress' lost.

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Original poster

MrAlbertoFrog · 12/12/2011 13:50

I understand that abigailS, but we did ask the teacher when we met (since he was so upset over the mark and I wanted to point out that maybe it wasn't ideal to tell kids their SAT mark for individual pieces of work) but she certainly implied that he was working at 3b. If I had known his yr 5 level then, I would have asked about it.

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IndigoBell · 12/12/2011 13:58

Was it his English mark that was a 4b? Or his writing?

English consists of reading, writing and speaking & listening. So the average of all of them could have been a 4b - while his writing was only a 3b.

A 3b is not where he should be now, nor does it suggest that he'd get a 4b at the end of the year.

If he was a 3b now and he makes good progress he'd get a 4c. And a 4c is slightly below where he should be at the end of Y6.

DeWe · 12/12/2011 14:03

Dd1 had an assessed piece of writing marked at level 3b midway year 5. She got a 5b at the end of year 5. The teacher said she'd been "too cautious" in her writing for that one piece.

Original poster

MrAlbertoFrog · 12/12/2011 14:11

The yr5 doesn't break it down, it's as I quoted it '4b with reading skills achieving higher' His teacher for this year has said that his comprehension is good but she was also insisting that the 3b was ok and expected for a top set child. His school is supposedly 'outstanding' in a v middle class not at all deprived/under-resourced area.
Am going to, politely, ask for more information. Nothing will change the level he gets, but his level of happiness in himself could be improved!

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IndigoBell · 12/12/2011 14:24

Maybe also find out if they're going to do extra booster classes before SATS?

They're quite common for 'borderline' kids :)

abiesa · 12/12/2011 14:53

Just wanted to say that a couple of mine so far left primary with 5as and started secondary with 3bs. Despite their 3bs, they failed to escape the top stream (based on CATs), and so far have produced clear runs of A*/As at GCSE. So if you're happy with how he's learning, the SATs are only for the school's ratings, not his. The first thing they do in year 7 at our local schools is assess them. It seems certain primaries' reported year 6 levels are always higher than year 7 tests... I can't think why...

With hindsight I'd ask about the blip, just for entertainment value. Unless you had concerns before this. His confidence in preparing for next year and beyond may be more important that the 3b/5a now, as to how much he'll enjoy secondary school. Boosters are OK for teaching to the test. The test tests how well the school does its job. I'm not sure how much boosters make a child love to learn. if he loves to learn, he'll do well.

Original poster

MrAlbertoFrog · 12/12/2011 15:18

Thanks Abiesa. The school doesn't publish their SAT percentages so they say that the score is entirely for the child's benefit not for the school. The teacher did insist that the SAT scores were acted on by the local (gigantic) secondary and that 'he could be in the top set but if he doesn't improve he'll be in set 4 or 5 and it will be impossible to get back up to the top'. I thought all secondary schools did CAT testing now rather than depend on the primary sats.
To be honest, I don't mind what set he is in, just that it is right for him. I'm not claiming he's a genius, he is my gorgeous boy and as long as he is trying hard that's good enough for me. Just don't want to see him so upset over school work when he is only 10, there are other things to be valued other than being in the top set. I wouldn't say that he enjoys learning. He is quiet and well-behaved at school and loves reading and history. He would not currently describe himself as academic or studious though :)

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IndigoBell · 12/12/2011 15:28

Is it a state school? It's the govt that publishes the percentages not the school.

All schools set differently. Ask parents of older children how it's done at the school your DC will go to :)

Mum2be79 · 12/12/2011 15:39

Ignore SATs. It doesn't give a true indication of a child's ability because the test marks only two bits of writing on a particular day and really is there as a means to rank schools in a 'football style' league table.

I also agree that ONE piece of writing is not a true reflection on a child's ability. We all have talents in many different areas. Some children can produce good standards of writing on one aspect of genre and not on another.

When I mark APP (even at Y1) I 'dot' the assessed criteria for each piece of writing and do not 'highlight' the criteria until the child has demonstrated 3/4 times that they have met the individual target. Hence the difficulty to properly assess a child's writing level until the end of the year when they've had a chance to write in different genres.

IndigoBell · 12/12/2011 15:42

Mum - this year the writing mark is teacher assessed, and not based on an exam. :)

abiesa · 12/12/2011 15:45

He's open to learning and seems sensitive. I'd say it's important he's not browbeatened into thinking he's doomed academically, when from what is described, he's doing fine.

Every secondary does CATs, it allows them to calculate value-added. They get a good idea where he should be from that, and it's bad for them if they cannot produce the growth his CATs indicate. Affects their VA number directly. The y6 SATs is nothing to the kids, and everything to the primary, so you can see where the motivations lie.

Either the teacher is misinformed or mistakened. In December of y6 ask yourself what they can genuinely add that they haven't already in the last six years. Seems like they don't know enough about children wanting to do well for themselves, and are afraid they may bomb out their tests and bring disgrace into the school's ratings. Meh.

Original poster

MrAlbertoFrog · 12/12/2011 15:49

Yes it's a state school, but have just checked your link and there is no data for this school (or most of the others in the town). Does that mean that they have 'opted out' of sats then (because they definitely are having a sats week etc, we have been told that the first two terms are aimed at getting the children ready for sats week and the last term is aimed at easing the transition to secondary)?

Again, it's my son who cares about his sat results not me or his dad. And it's school that has been stressing him about it, but since he is stressed, we need to at least understand and be able to explain to him, what he needs to do to get the outcome he wants or to accept the level he is scored at.

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IndigoBell · 12/12/2011 15:55

School can't opt out. AFAIK the only reason it might not have results published is if it has less than 10 pupils in Y6.

If your school has more than 10 kids I can't understand why it doesn't have it's results published.

Not sure what to suggest re school putting pressure on him. I guess just talking to the teacher to find out more? The writing will be teacher assessed this year - so it is her who will be giving him his grade.

Abiesa - I didn't know CAT had anything to do with VA? I thought VA was just calculated from KS2 SATS to GCSEs?

abiesa · 12/12/2011 16:09

Indigo, all of ours use the MidYIS for value added calculations - which is effectively CATs. Guess that avoids SATs which appear to be any letter and number that pops up on the day. I will admit that my rebel tendencies have only emerged recently as a result of much angst being stirred up amongst friends with y6 DCs, when they really count for as good as nothing in secondary, despite the battle tales promulagated by primaries about setting.

RustyBear · 12/12/2011 16:28

Have the 2011 results been published for individual schools yet? If not, what you will see is the 2010 results and lots of schools boycotted those, so they won't have any results published.

IndigoBell · 12/12/2011 16:38

No - the schools that boycotted still had the teacher assessments published.

2011 results will be published any day now.....

hocuspontas · 12/12/2011 16:40

4B at the end of year 6 is the expected level of 'bottom set' children I would have thought. 'Top set' children achieve solid level 5s. Or is that just where I live? What did he achieve at KS1? I would be wanting to sit down with the teacher to discuss progress. 3B at this stage is under-achieving and I would expect some intervention and explanation why this hasn't been picked up before.

IndigoBell · 12/12/2011 16:40

But you're right you have to click on to the school's page to see the teacher assessment. It's not on the front table.

IndigoBell · 12/12/2011 16:42

4b is middle set - not bottom set.

20% of children (nationally) get a L3 or below. (or something like that)

hocuspontas · 12/12/2011 16:46

It is the expected level of all children so bottom set children should be achieving it. (In the government's ideal world)

IndigoBell · 12/12/2011 16:53

I don't think a 4b would put you in the bottom set in any school.

An awful lot of children will be below a 4b at the start of Y7.

mrz · 12/12/2011 17:13

4b is not the expected level for ALL pupils in Y6 a school would be seen as under performing if less than 60% of pupils failed to achieve level 4 or higher

If the 3B is for a single piece of writing it doesn't mean your child has gone backwards only that he has struggled in this particular piece. It could be that in other pieces he has achieved much higher levels but it indicates an area for development and I would imagine the teacher will be setting targets based on any weaknesses in this genre.

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