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Original poster

Confused at to why Reception DD is being taught letter names so soon after sounds?

208 replies

Owlelf · 09/12/2011 21:06

DD is in reception. When she she knew a few letter sounds and could form a few letters. She seems to have progressed really well and knows all get letter sounds, is decoding words and writing captions. To be honest I am really impressed that she has come on so quickly and have to credit her teachers.

I am confused though, that her phonics group are now learning the names of the letters. This evening we read her school book and she seemed to be confusing the letter sounds and names. To my (completely untrained) mind it seems too soon to be confusing her with letter names when she has just learned (?learnt?) the sounds.

I realise I could broach this with her teacher, but would prefer not to as they must know what they are doing- not least given DDs progress so far under their wing.

She is working within stage 3 phonics BTW (her class is split into several groups for phonics, so not all children are learning letter names at the moment).

So I am really interested as to why, at this early stage the letter names are needed? Can anyone explain please?

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CecilyP · 13/12/2011 18:24

How strange! Why don't they just treat 'put' as a tricky word for southerners? What do they teach in phase 5 that suddenly makes 'put' decodable?

maizieD · 13/12/2011 18:36

In this area put is p u t but we have a computerised programme that says it in a southern accent which totally confuses the children

That's really weird, mrz. I (southerner) don't think I say 'put' any differently from the NE children Xmas Confused

mrz · 13/12/2011 18:37

this is more of a p oo t

Mashabell · 13/12/2011 18:45

So which phonics expert is right?
Bonsoir:
If you are using a decodable book scheme to teach phonics, you do actually need to be dictatorial about the order in which sounds are taught, or you make nonsense of the decodable book scheme!

Mrz
My big problem with the government Letters & Sounds is that teachers are getting hung up on the bliddy phases and believe they can't teach out of phase ... well you can and what is more you bliddy well should!

I am with Strongestmummy
....the sooner kids learn to laugh at English spelling the better.

Santa
...the word 'put'. i'm struggling to think of other words in which a single 'u' makes that sound.

  • They are all on my website: bull, full, pull, bullet, bullion; bush, cushion, push, shush; put, pudding, pussy; butcher; sugar.
mrz · 13/12/2011 19:02

So which phonics expert is right?

are you referring to me as a phonics expert masha?

maizieD · 13/12/2011 19:07

Don't you think you are a phonics expert, then mrz?

What is more to the point, though, is that masha seems to think that there is some sort of disagreement going on here.

Which, of course, there isn't. We're just discussing the fascinating complexity of spoken English...

mrz · 13/12/2011 19:14

No maizie I think I'm someone who teaches phonics effectively

I was asking because it appears from the quotes (Bonsoir and myself) that masha believe these are conflicting

SantaIsAnAnagramOfSatan · 13/12/2011 19:24

it's nothing like poot.

children don't exist in phases fgs. and saying ah that comes in a later phase answers nothing tbf.

and this is his first book sent home from school for him to read to me.

mrz · 13/12/2011 19:27

it's nothing like poot.

So you are familiar with the computer programme I'm referring to SantaIsAnAnagramOfSatan? How would you describe the way the programme pronounces put?

SantaIsAnAnagramOfSatan · 13/12/2011 19:35

i was saying the word put is nothing like 'poot'. why are you so determined to be rude and antagonistic? Confused

mrz · 13/12/2011 19:43

Had you read the thread instead of jumping in and saying it's nothing like poot. you would have known I was referring to a voice on a computer programme that is confusing our children because it says poot for put they are also confused by the same voice saying grarss and barth etc

SoundsWrite · 13/12/2011 20:54

I think there's a bit of confusion here, Santa. What Mrz is (quite rightly) saying is that the way the vowel sound in 'put' is written is with a . It's the same sound in southern English as the vowel sound in 'could' and 'book'. It is also the spelling used to represent the sound 'oo' in 'moon'. I know, it's confusing but the problem is that if you use the International Phonetic Alphabet, which is used internationally to represent the sounds in English words in dictionaries, you have a learn a whole of weird symbols to represent the majority of the vowel sounds in English.
But again, as I keep arguing, if you go from sounds (44) to print/spellings, although it's a complex system, it can be taught very successfully.

maizieD · 13/12/2011 20:56

I was referring to a voice on a computer programme that is confusing our children because it says poot for put they are also confused by the same voice saying grarss and barth etc

I still think it's weird, mrz! However, I'm going down to Essex after Christmas to see friends and relatives. I shall get them all to say 'put' for me...

Perhaps my accent has just become more 'Northern' than I thought it was... but I still say grarss and barth....

Feenie · 13/12/2011 20:58

I can't see anywhere where mrz has been rude or antagonistic, Santa Confused

So the southern accented computer lady says 'put' like 'poot' - to rhyme with 'boot'? Confused

mrz · 13/12/2011 21:06

I'm assuming she has a southern accent from the grarss and barth but on the computer she could well be just a bad actress assuming a very dodgy poot pronunciation

Feenie it's somewhere between but and boot as I say it has everyone confused

StrongestMummyInTheWorld · 13/12/2011 21:15

Ah, I was wondering about the problems of regional accents. I can't see how it can work in some places without being substantially rewritten.

Now I'm going to be asking everyone I meet how they pronounce "put". A friend of mine from Stoke says it with a long u - she also says book and cook in the same way. But are you saying in the North east it's the upside down e in the phonic alphabet?

And my child has just hilariously suggested "owphabet" (alphabet) as a word containing the sound "ow". Here's me thinking I talk proper too.

mrz · 13/12/2011 21:31

no in the north east it would be a bit like a horseshoe in the IPA

SantaIsAnAnagramOfSatan · 13/12/2011 22:21

i was commenting that put doesn't sound poot - i wasn't saying that you said it did. i was responding to your comment about the computer and agreeing it was misleading. you seem to have assumed i was saying something stupid or misunderstanding and therefore come back in the way you did.

i shall bow out of the thread as clearly i'm being misinterpreted and responded to as if i've said or meant things i haven't.

Mashabell · 14/12/2011 07:07

Santa
Please don't let Mrz drive u away. She has been uppity and rude to me many times, and other people have complained it about it too.

One of the problems with short /oo/ is that it has no spelling of its own at all.
All the graphemes for it are more common for other sounds:
moon, soon, spoon.. (in 95 words) .? but, cut, nut...(308)?
? golf, gone, (375) but also ? won, wonderful, worry (3)
The sound of (in the 12 words with it) is very variable:

could, should, would;

boulder, mould, moult, shoulder, smoulder, poultry, soul; foul; ghoulish.

Fortunately only 36 English words have a short /oo/ sound:
Good, hood, stood, wood. Book, brook, cook, hook, look, rook, shook, took.
Wool. Whoosh. Foot.
Bull, bullet, bullion, bush, butcher, cuckoo, cushion, full, pull, put, pudding, pussy, push, sugar, shush.
Could, should, would. Courier.
Wolf, woman.

SantaIsAnAnagramOfSatan · 14/12/2011 07:33

see i learnt the international phonetic system - including how to record intonation, timing, etc etc and THEN phonetics makes sense of course. this cobbled version using the alphabet clearly has it's limits - i don't know why people fight so hard to deny that. saying it has it's limits does not mean you are saying it is shit or useless or isn't the best available means for teaching many children.

thanks for your comment mashabell - being told someone is not being rude to you when they very clearly are is all a bit gaslight-y for me! Grin glad to have a little reality confirmation.

i loved true phonetics and it really enriched my ear for language - it makes total sense. obviously it's not a system we can teach to 4yo (or need to) and obviously borrowing basic concepts from it and trying to do it without the full toolbox means that you have an incomplete system with flaws. why deny it? school versions of phonetics are not a religion are they? am i challenging the foundations of someone's very existential understanding of reality? Hmm

mrz · 14/12/2011 07:42

I also leant the IPA during three years of studying linguistics SantaIsAnAnagramOfSatan and 20+ years of teaching four year olds to read using phonics convinces me that it does work if taught thoroughly.

masha telling you that I object to your attempts to convert you to U hasn't succeeded in driving you away or preventing you from posting your silly lists or indeed in preventing you making accusations you are unable to support
Xmas Hmm

Bonsoir · 14/12/2011 07:46

"Please don't let Mrz drive u away. She has been uppity and rude to me many times, and other people have complained it about it too."

mashabell - mrz is one of MN's most patient and knowledgeable posters, who generously shares her experience and expertise with grace and clarity. I have never seen anyone complain about mrz other than you (and you are very trying Wink).

Mashabell · 14/12/2011 08:01

Santa
Are u aware that only English monoligual dictionaries, like the OED, have phonetic pronunciation guides?
In a way that's the clearest proof that English spelling is not a reliable guide to pronunciation.

Chinese now uses them for beginners too, using the Latin alphabet.
I am not aware of any other language that needs them.

SantaIsAnAnagramOfSatan · 14/12/2011 08:07

i haven't posted any link Confused

and i haven't tried to change you for u, in fact don't even know what you're on about Confused

so it seems your continued rudeness towards me is not even about me Confused

thanks for listing your qualifications though Confused