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Primary education

Join our Primary Education forum to discuss starting school and helping your child get the most out of it.

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Original poster

mrz and other experts on literacy in primary schools...

31 replies

Bonsoir · 07/12/2011 17:19

At what age should a child be asked in a reading comprehension whether a piece of writing is real or imaginary, and to identify the fact that is imaginary because of the presence of a mythical creature (unicorn, mermaid, elf etc) in the text?

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Hulababy · 07/12/2011 17:21

As in fact or fiction?

Or that the story may be set in real life rather than a mythical world?

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Bonsoir · 07/12/2011 17:24

As in the story may be set in real life rather than in a mythical world.

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SandStorm · 07/12/2011 17:27

I've just asked DD and she remembers doing it in year 2 and we certainly cover it with our year 3s.

Hulababy · 07/12/2011 17:27

Not sure when it is taught tbh, sorry. I know fact and fiction is done in Y1. But real v mythical world for a story - not sure. DD is 9y (Y5) and she can definitely identify which is which and why, and has been able to for a few years. Not sure if it has come up on a comprehension for her though.

Hulababy · 07/12/2011 17:27

So yes, agree with sandstorm - I would say by Y3 at the very least.

DownbytheRiverside · 07/12/2011 17:28

I'd have thought around 7, with special exemption for Father Christmas and the Tooth fairy.

Original poster

Bonsoir · 07/12/2011 17:28

Basically, at what point should we realistically be expecting our children to no longer believe in mermaids, fairies, monsters, elves etc, or even mind that they are mere figments of human imagination?

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Hulababy · 07/12/2011 17:35

Hmm...tricky. I would say that father Christnas is a huge exception for many children, and to some extent the Tooth Fairy or even the Easter Bunny.

I guess it is the difference between wanting to believe and really believing for other stories. DD would truely love for the world of Harry Potter to be real, with real wizards an ddragons and goblins and house elves. but no matter how much she would love a letter to arrive from hogwarts when she is 11y she knows really that it isn't a real world.

Original poster

Bonsoir · 07/12/2011 17:40

Isn't there a difference, though, between semi-conscious awareness of the non-existence of wizards, dragons, elves, mermaids etc because you have never seen them in RL, only read about them in books and seen them in films, and having to analyse a text in class with questions that force you to bring that semi-conscious awareness to full consciousness and make a black and white statement about it?

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hockeyforjockeys · 07/12/2011 18:05

Imaginary worlds is a topic from the Year 4 literacy strategy, so by then children should have a good understanding of what constitutes fantasy settings and characters. However I think many still half believe at that age, and I think that is right. What they should understand though is that those 'worlds' are separate to ours and that we wouldn't expect to encounter them in real life.

Do remember reminding my Year 6s that Harry Potter got his invitation to Hogwarts during the summer holidays of Year 6 as I waved them off at the end of the year, I think many were still secretly hoping an owl would be winging its way to them!

mrz · 07/12/2011 18:07

We ask in nursery but not in the context of fairies, dragons, mermaids more in the context of books like Whatever Next - baby bear flying up the chimney in his box rocket to the moon ... did he really go?

My class have asked for a dragon as a class pet and I've completed the risk assessment!

Original poster

Bonsoir · 08/12/2011 06:27

hockeyforjockeys - studying works of literature set in imaginary worlds sounds lovely; I think that children ought to be allowed to still believe in those imaginary worlds if they want to...

I'm beginning to understand better why French people have no imagination!

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rabbitstew · 08/12/2011 07:51

Well, I hope they don't get asked to spell it out in black and white too young, because the suspension of disbelief makes a story an awful lot more enjoyable and I don't think most primary school children would be ready to write an extended essay on the differences between faith, belief, the suspension of disbelief, doubt and non-belief...

munstersmum · 08/12/2011 10:14

mrz hope you've stored risk assessment in fire proof cabinet or might have to suggest it's incomplete

nailak · 08/12/2011 10:27

my 4 year old dd in reception can tell you that, she knows some of what she sees in tv is made up and is some real, so for example she will say "in the grandpa in my pocket world" to identify that it is a different reality to the one we live in.

and like said books about dragons, or babies going to the moon, she laughs and says "thats silly, that doesnt happen in our world mummy".

rabbitstew · 08/12/2011 11:21

There's a big difference between knowing that dragons and monsters aren't real and being tiresome enough to spell it out as though everyone else is an idiot who didn't realise.

rabbitstew · 08/12/2011 11:23

(Not meant to be a slur on nailak's daughter, btw - a 4-year old would feel proud of themselves for knowing the difference, I just object ot adults pointing it out too early on!).

Original poster

Bonsoir · 08/12/2011 11:34

DD came to me in bed the other night, when we had all already turned the lights out, and whispered in my ear in a very low voice so that DP couldn't hear "Mummy, did mermaids exist once upon a time?". She doesn't want to be laughed at for asking those questions and IMO she wants to try to suspend disbelief as long as possible so that she can enjoy all the stories she reads as much as possible... I tell her the truth but also very discretely. She doesn't need to dwell on this information, IMO, and I cannot see the point of school pulling imaginary worlds apart when the children are on the cusp of really enjoying children's literature for themselves as independent readers...

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Original poster

Bonsoir · 08/12/2011 11:35

discreetly

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nailak · 08/12/2011 11:42

tbh im not sure if she realises the "other worlds" dont exist... I'll ask her, but she knows that real life is not like that.

beingarebel · 08/12/2011 11:57

My dd (5.5) says that things like dragons are in dragon world or whatever. What she's not got yet is that other worlds don't actually exist. She also can't distinguish between the fantasy that is based on human form and reality. So wizards, witches, fantasy princesses etc are very real, so I expect she'd totally believe Harry Potter. She's beginning to question the existance of fairies in this world because she's not seen one recently . I am left wondering how many she has seen! And Father Christmas is very real but the ones out and about are his helpers dressed up like him.
One thing that we've struggled with though is ghosts. I've never been a believer until 3 years ago when I saw one (with ds present). I've since seen that same one a few more times, the last time being less than 2 months ago. DS and dd have both seen a different ghost as well in the same house in a different room. So how do you explain that all away. Its a very blurry line between fantasy and reality sometimes.

pickledsiblings · 08/12/2011 11:57

Bonsoir, DS1 is like this with dragons He was a bit disappointed the other day at school when he realised that one of his very good friends didn't 'believe in' them. What I say to my children is that it's very hard to prove that something doesn't exist. That normally does the trick. I suspect that it will do your DD no harm to know that other people don't necessarily believe in what she does. She can still believe and critically analyse the text, so long as she justifies her responses.

beingarebel · 08/12/2011 12:02

With mermaids I have spoken about all the old sailors tales and so whilst I've not said they not exist I've not said they do. I've also, in a seperate conversation, talked about dugongs and how people used to believe were mermaids. One day she'll put those 2 conversations together herself. That will be the day she is ready for it. As for dragons we've done similar and have gone and seen the dragons we do know about (Komodo dragons) in the zoo. She can then make sense of it in her own way in her own time.

rabbitstew · 08/12/2011 12:57

In other words, it's for those who think something doesn't exist to prove it.

And anyway, I find the whole idea of being able to separate stories about the "real" world from stories about an "imaginary" world irritating. For example, a novel about Queen Victoria is the result of someone's imagination putting an historical character into all sorts of situations she probably never experienced in reality, or never reacted to in precisely the way described. So what's real about that? It's a description of an alternative reality that could have happened but never actually did, made to seem more authentic by ensuring that enough research has been done into the times and the character that no glaring holes in reality can be seen to spoil the suspension of disbelief. We wouldn't want children going around thinking they can believe everything they read in a novel about the "real" world, but should immediately be on their guard if novels talk about ghosts, witches and mermaids.

Original poster

Bonsoir · 08/12/2011 14:44

"We wouldn't want children going around thinking they can believe everything they read in a novel about the "real" world, but should immediately be on their guard if novels talk about ghosts, witches and mermaids."

I agree very much; and, of course, stories that contain mermaids can also have a lot of historical detail that is close to reality and that can help children form an idea of another period of history.

I don't know, I think some people think any sort of imaginary creature is a lie that children have a duty to be informed about and their ideas put straight. You get threads on here about Father Christmas and how he is a lie and children deserve better

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