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Primary education

Join our Primary Education forum to discuss starting school and helping your child get the most out of it.

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Original poster

'this' is a tricky word and can't be sounded out ...

107 replies

rushofbloodtothefeet · 07/12/2011 17:02

So goes the teachers comment in DDs reading book.

Aaargh!

I hereby give up all hope of her school teaching any child to read effectively. I shall continue teaching my daughter to read at home - where she is happily reading the Songbirds books. (And she was able to work out 'this' by herself before she even started reception)

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IndigoBell · 07/12/2011 17:07

That is truly scary.

Indith · 07/12/2011 17:11

It is a tricky word that can't be sounded out if doing something like Jolly Phonics actually as the "th" is taught as in "Thank" and not as the "v" like sound of "this" or "that".

learnandsay · 07/12/2011 17:12

I like the idea of my children hearing all kinds of crazy notions about what you should and shouldn't learn and how you should and shouldn't read, write, eat and so on. That's life and I'm all for it. That's why I'm against home education.

On the other hand. If I believe it's important to know, learn or understand, I'll show my children how to do it properly first. Then other people can tell them anything they like. If my kids like it they'll adopt it and if they don't they won't. But either way they'll be able to read, write and do arithmetic beautifully regardless of what they get taught in school!

If school teaches them well then great! If not, great!

Original poster

rushofbloodtothefeet · 07/12/2011 17:14

But 'th' as in thanks is surely good enough to decode the word. I don't say 'vis' or 'vat' anyway.

OP posts:

SoundsWrite · 07/12/2011 17:15

You know why, don't you, Rushofbloodtothefeet? Because the word 'this' is the thirty-fourth word in the list of high-frequency words listed in Letters and Sounds and many teachers think that words listed in the HFWs list can't be segmented into separate sounds. Of course, they can, as can very single word in the English language.
What we at Sounds-Write keep arguing is that all teachers teaching children to read and spell need to be properly trained. You can't stick a manual in the hands and expect them to make sense of it.

Original poster

rushofbloodtothefeet · 07/12/2011 17:18

I hear what you are saying learnandsay, but small children tend to treat the teachers word as law. I have severe objections to them teaching something that is plain wrong

(Apologies now if I come across as a bit ranty - I'm just frustrated by the school's inability to differentiate their teaching in any way without a big fight - it fills me with dread for the future )

OP posts:

Hulababy · 07/12/2011 17:19

But it is simply th/i/s - most definitely decodable. th is one of the phase 3 sounds in Letters and Sounds. Many children learn this in Reception/Foundation stage, some maybe near the start of Y1.

It is one of the high frequency words that you can get lists of, although many schools don't use these, but high frequency words are not tricky words.

Original poster

rushofbloodtothefeet · 07/12/2011 17:23

BTW the teacher is NQ - this is her first teaching post. I thought it would be great, that she would be up-to-date with all the latest methods. Instead we are stuck in the midst of Biff & Chipper hell . According to her letter bag they have only covered 12 phonic letters so far anyway, absolutely no mention of diagraphs, how the heck they expect most kids to read 'flour' and 'spaceman' with only that grounding I don't know

OP posts:

learnandsay · 07/12/2011 17:27

There are a few versions of the non-phonetic word list. I think what's right and wrong about the size of the list and what's on it could boil down to a matter of opinion. But many schools do have an open door policy. You should be able to discuss it with the teacher concerned. She might give you the list of tricky words. So you'll be able to predict the others.

My three year old has no trouble with many words on the list. They come up in phonics books quite frequently. She just reads what's written in front of her! I guess that's the problem with teaching. When you teach your own child you don't need to get bogged down with theories. You just teach them how to do it and they can either do it or they can't.

Inevitably in the end they can. (Unlike some pupils at school.)

I'd at least try to understand what the teacher is getting at and why she's been trained that way, even if it turns out to be unnecessary for my child's education.

Hope that helps.

mrz · 07/12/2011 18:16

It is a tricky word that can't be sounded out if doing something like Jolly Phonics

there are two rude clowns in JP who put out their tongues one saying "th" as in that and the other saying "th" as in feather (it is never pronounced v or f)

whatever system you use this is fully decodable and not in the least tricky! I

mrz · 07/12/2011 18:18

learnandsay all words are phonetic so there aren't any lists of non phonetic words never mind different versions

If your teacher is saying these things they haven't been trained

FlamingoBingo · 07/12/2011 18:23

Learnandsay: "I like the idea of my children hearing all kinds of crazy notions about what you should and shouldn't learn and how you should and shouldn't read, write, eat and so on. That's life and I'm all for it. That's why I'm against home education."

What on earth do you mean by that statement?

Indith · 07/12/2011 18:24

Ok, not really got that far with the JP workbooks yet. Have been mixing them in with RWI flashcards and only got the "thank you" version so far. I do know it isn't quite like a "v" or an "f", just trying to explain what I meant with a rough approximation. Probably doesn't help that I can't actually pronounce my "th" properly, I can't differentiate between "three" and "free".

hocuspontas · 07/12/2011 18:25

She probably means that it is tricky because they haven't learnt the 'th' digraph yet. We call a lot of the HFW words 'tricky' until we reach the point where they are decodeable. E.g. 'now' is a 'tricky' word to start with, but this week I have covered the 'ow' digraph in phase 3 so my group won't be calling it 'tricky' any more, it will just become a normal word that can be sounded out (if necessary).

(Is 'sounded' a word? It looks odd!)

Original poster

rushofbloodtothefeet · 07/12/2011 18:29

So, do I

Write a sarcastic note in the reading book asking for an explanation
Ask for a face to face meeting where I (yet again) talk to a brick wall - the teacher comes across very lovely and says nice things about DD, but I have never had any of the things I request backed up. They seemed determined to plod along at a median (and now I believe in fact mediocre) level in the hope that some of it might stick.
Sit and stew in silence and expect them only to teach her how to sit nicely on the carpet and take her turn to talk and say please (all of which she can do already)

I know I sound pushy - but it isn't like that at all, honest

OP posts:

mrz · 07/12/2011 18:33

A nice note asking if she can just clarify what she means about this being tricky as you understand it is fully decodable with no tricky parts

mrz · 07/12/2011 18:35

th and th are taught together as letters that represent two sounds (as are oo oo )

Original poster

rushofbloodtothefeet · 07/12/2011 20:39

Wise advice mrz, I shall restrain myself

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mrz · 07/12/2011 20:42

rushofbloodtothefeet please tell me she isn't teaching one sound a week! [beg]

Original poster

rushofbloodtothefeet · 07/12/2011 20:58

Well a summary sheet we had at the beginning of this half term claimed they were doing 4 sounds per week, but like I say they have 12 letters so far in their bag to bring home, plus a list of (presumably HFW) like 'the' 'and' 'put' etc.

We are plodding inexorably through the Chiffer books, though at least they have words in now - I find them infuriating - how do they expect a child to read 'spaceman' when you have only taught them 12 letters, let alone diagraphs or about more complex phonemes. DD could read it BTW because she is able to decode it, no thanks to the school, I'm assuming they are expecting the kids to mostly guess from the pictures?

I also don't like the fact that there seems to be no one-to-one reading. They do guided reading in a group of 5 twice a week, but as far as I can establish the teacher never reads alone with DD. Why am I surprised that they seem to have no idea of what she is capable of?

OP posts:

PointyLittleDonkeyEars · 07/12/2011 21:04

rush are you deliberately conflating Biff, Chip and Kipper into a sort of amorphous blob of horribleness?

I do hope so, it's hilarious

Feenie · 07/12/2011 21:08

I think we need to wait for Masha and one of her lists to check whether 'this' is really decodable or not.

Original poster

rushofbloodtothefeet · 07/12/2011 21:08

"amorphous blob of horribleness"

OP posts:

btdtgtts · 07/12/2011 21:09

mrz, did you really mean this: "there are two rude clowns in JP who put out their tongues one saying "th" as in that and the other saying "th" as in feather" or did you mistype? Both of those are voiced "th"s, practically identically pronounced (in my dialect at least). The distinction I was expecting to read that JP made was between voiced th and unvoiced th (as in three, for example).

mrz · 07/12/2011 21:10

I'm so relieved masha has returned I had visions of the police digging up my patio in a search for the body

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