The Year 3 "dip"

[redskyatnight]

I've read on MN about children appearing to "dip" in Y3 due to the changes in requirements for KS2 compared to KS1.

Y3 DS's maths teacher has just given him his current NC level for maths (why she has is another question especially since he seems to have no idea what it means ...) and it is the same as the level he was given at the end of KS1.

So does this mean he's actually doing quite well (to have adapted to KS2 curriculum), or would you expect more progress by now, or (what I realise is the most likely answer) it doesn't really mean anything and children progress in peaks and troughs etc etc anyway?

I think it means that, yes, he is doing well to have maintained his KS1 level ie. he hasn't shown the "Summer slide" that often happens.

Also research has shown that children's progress actually plateaus around Y3 and 4

What research?

Ds has been back at school less than 2 months - it may be difficult to increase a sub level in 6 or 7 weeks. I'm not a professional, just guessing .

AurraSing is quite right, most schools expect 2 sub levels progress over a year, so less than a sublevel per term ( especially after the summer holiday when children sometimes do seem to come back in knowing absolutely nothing!)

There is no 'KS1' - 'KS2' curriculum as such.

Teachers of children from Y1 through to Y6 will be assessing children against level descriptors. Their assessments should inform their planning and their teaching, so to ensure that all children progress.

A 'typical' Y2 child will be working at L2, but some of his/her peers may be working at L1(-) or L3 (+).

KS2 and KS1 don't have different requirements. A Level 3 is a level 3 whether you get it in Y2 or Y6.

However, it's meant to take a year to go up a level. So between July and Nov it's perfectly fine to have not made any progress in terms of levels or sub levels.

I bet however your DC has made progress. Just not a whole 'sub level' :)

Indigo,

It's actually 2 years to go up a full level in KS2 (though 2 sublevels per year is usually used as the target). In KS1 it's a 3 sublevels per year, so yes, 1 level per year.

(Varies a bit between schools, though - depends quite a lot on the 'translation' between end of reception EYFS levels and beginning of Year 1 levels as this seems to be school-dependent as the two are not equivalent).

Sorry - I did mean 2 years for a level.

Not EVERY child goes down from end of y2 to middle of autumn term y3; DS1 apparently went up more than a whole NC level.

Which goes to prove how inexact the assessments are, I really wouldn't credit any of them very much.

I'll try and find .It's been well documented since the 70s

Spiderpig is this partly because it's sometimes seen as a bit of a 'consolidation' year I wonder? Teachers have said to me that some children reach the levels they do at the end of KS1 due to 'scaffolding' and once the help they've received falls away some stumble around for a while.

For example they need to write a great story with good spelling, grammar and decent beginning, middle and end to do well in KS1 SATS. On each table is a chart with KS1 spellings, good openers, beginnings, middles and ends and fabulous connectives/general VCOP etc.

They start in Y3 and initially they're on their own a bit. They're working in groups and some find that they can't spell could/would/should etc now the VCOP pyramid isn't visible or spelling lists. They've got a rough idea of how to write a great story but as they've only written a few that are level 3 standard, with a lot of help, it will take a while to be firmly at that standard.

This shouldn't happen in a decent school - and guidance is not to award a level 3 unless it is secure.

A dip used to occur between Y2 and Y3 because of incomparable assessment systems - this was 'fixed' in 2005. Any assessment carried out in Y2 and Y3 has to use the same whole school assessment system, and good schools will moderate judgements to make sure they are uniform across the school.

Any differences might come from a)infant schools who may not moderate with a separate junior school or b)Y3 teachers who are not secure in their teacher assessment and who are used to assessing by test only - not good practice (Y2 teachers are very well versed in teacher assessment procedures - they spend the entire year doing just that, have to jump through many, many assessment hoops and are outside moderated to boot).

In answer to the OP, even expecting good progress (two sublevels per year) then you may not see numerical movement until February.

I think some children don't appear to make much progress in Y3 either to do with their Y2 grades being over-inflated (for the purpose of SATs reporting) - or (occasionally) to do with their Y3 teachers expecting their Y2 grades to have been over-inflated, and therefore having low expectations of them :)

I don't think there is any research in the world that says an 8 year old should make less progress than a 6 or a 10 year old. :)

Most Y3s do make adequate progress. Apart from in schools where Y2 data is routinely over-inflated.

Why would y2 data be over-inflated, except maybe in Infants-only schools? Doesn't it benefit the school more to under-rate them in y2 so that they can appear to have made more progress by y6?

Y2 data isn't always over-inflated, but it can be.

It can be because:

• It's an infant school not a primary school
• It has a new HT
• It has a HT who isn't planning to stay for 4 years :)
• The criteria for the levels are very vague / woolly so teachers can't agree what mark it should be
• The teacher wants to show they've made progress
• The teacher isn't moderated properly
• Cognitive bias

The sure sign that your DCs grades has been over-inflated, is their Y3 teacher telling you not to expect progress in Y3 because of a Y3 dip :)

I disagree, Indigobell (apart from the infant school point, or the head not staying long one ) - Y2 teachers mostly know assessment better than anyone, they do so much of it that they have to know their stuff. They have to have a very, very long professional conversation with a moderator to check this, and provide many, many pieces of evidence.

If a Y3 teacher has been there for a while, they may only be used to assessing using a one off, twice a year at the most, test. Excellent teacher assessment procedures started mostly with Y2 teachers around 2005 (and to a certain extent Y6 teachers) and floated up/down over the next few years. Now whole school assessment procedures should be firmly in place - but if anyone is likely to be less sure about their teacher assessment, then it's more likely to be a Y3 teacher than a Y2 one, who have to know the process inside out.

Thats really interesting Feenie.

Because of course you get the same effect in Y7, where Y7 teachers swear black and blue that all the Y6 SATs are over inflated.

Maybe it's just an urban myth that Y2 grades are inflated, and they aren't in general.

But Indigo from Y6 to Y7 children will normally change schools and to get good OFSTEDs schools have to show progress, so it's logical that they would 'downgrade' Y7 children - so that they can show off how much progress their teaching has produced at the end of the year.

Or maybe I'm just completely cynical - not about teachers, who are stuck with a system that is no use to man nor beast, but about OFSTED.

Exactly, pointythings. Which is why you get junior schools moaning. But not teachers in the same school - they use exactly the same materials to assess - and if they don't, the Y3 teacher is out of step with the rest of the school, not the Y2 teacher!

Year 2 inflation only seems to be a problem for schools which are judged by their KS1 results - Infant and First schools.

All-through primaries seem to have a tension between 'wanting good KS1 results' and 'wanting good value add between KS1 and KS2' which keeps them 'more honest'!

Or makes them keep ks1 results artificially low in some cases of figure fiddling I believe teacherwith2kids.

I think the overinflation thing happed with my ds. In year 3 now finally working at level given at end year 2. I am happy with that.

When ds moved into year 3 the teacher openly said that he was going to go back ove r ks1 work to make.sure they were secure before moving on. I think this also provided the basis for setting in year 3. Ds