Help me with meeting with 'scary' maths teacher today!

[Solo2]

DS1 aged 10 is hugely anxious about maths and struggling to keep up in the third of 4 maths sets. His teacher is 'old school' and retires at the end of term. DS1 is terrified of him, daren't ask if he gets stuck and has lots of umarked HW and classwork in his book. If he ever asks for help in class, the teacher just tells him to go back to his seat and 'look at it again'.

I met the teacher last week at parents' evening and MY main topic was DS1's anxiety and how we might help him. DS1 also has processing difficulties that slow him down and obviously this causes masses of problems in things like mental maths tests and timestables tests - plus his anxiety.

Not for the first time, DS1 spent 1.5 hrs on maths HW the other night, developing an awful migraine headache as a result. I'd previously been told by the teacher to stick to the school rule of no more than 50 mins HW but since then, DS1 has been told off for being 'lazy' and 'using' this rule to avoid doing all the HW. So - again not for the first time - DS1 did all the HW with which he really struggled (as did I too!! - they work 2 yrs ahead of the age group at the school).

I emailed the teacher to let him know what was happening and ask how we might jointly support DS1 in maths generally but specifically, to help him feel less anxious. The teacher set up a meeting for tonight (they're not striking) but with DS1 to attend too.

Meanwhile, after getting my email - the teacher took DS1 to one side, alone, after class and told him off for doing more HW than the maximum time limit allows - yet reiterated that he should actually spend 50 mins on each of the two maths sections - thus a total of 1.5 hrs - which is exactly what DS1 HAD done! DS1 is confused and frightened. The teacher also told DS1 off for telling his mum he's anxious and told him, "You're NOT anxious - certainly never in my class!"

I think the teacher intends to use the meeting today to make DS1 tell me what the teacher wants him to say, ie "no I'm not really anxious in maths...yes, I'm to blame for spending too long on HW..." My focus is on how we reduce DS1's general anxiety. When he began at this prep. school, DS1 was good at maths, thought of maths as fun puzzles and was doing fine. He's gone downhill over the 3 and a bit yrs here. He's had 6 different maths teachers in the last 2 yrs alone and two of these have used sarcasm and public humiliation as strategies to push DS1 on further. These strategies don't work with DS1. He's just become more anxious.

How do I manage this difficult meeting tonight? DS1 believes the teacher will just take it out on him in the days following, for 'telling mum' about the teacher and I expect he's right, sadly. DS1 has a twin in the same maths group who is equally terrified if the maths teacher, has also gone downhill in maths and just tries to keep a low profile. Whilst a twin can't be an objective 'witness' to what goes on, he's certainly saying all the same things as DS1.

What's my best 'strategy' with this teacher. Is there a good way of 'playing it' so that the outcome is more encouragement of DS1 rather than further reprisal?

I went to a state grammar school and was above middle at that school, but wasn't until I got to uni that I realised that comparatively I was fairly clever. I think highly selective schools work well for those who are top dog, but to an extent this is at the expense of those who can't get it so well. I found at A level maths, the teachers would scriibble on blackboard, the oxbridge candidates would get it, if you didn't get it the teachers couldn't explain anything another way. Unless they are really flying in other subjects do at least look at other schools, state and indepndent, don't underestimate how far a high self-esteem and self-confidence will get you.

That seems like an awful lot of homework for a 10 year old. Do they do any non-academic activities?

I also think you are overthinking your relationship with the teacher and school, using words like "strategy" and phrases like "what I need the school to do". After all teachers presumably don't have such individual relationships with their pupils, they teach a whole class. Nor should or would a school care what you need it to do. They are an (business)institution, they work for the greatest happiness of the greatest number, or the greatest satisfaction of the greatest number of parents/customers.
I think there is no earthly reason why they should be upset to move down a set unless you make it something to be upset about.
I also got A in every other O'level I took, but I am still delighted with my C in Maths, and incredibly grateful for the teacher who took me to that C! I think you should congratulate yourself rather than commiserate that you had one C out of all the others...

You're the mum - you decide which meetings your kid attends.

You're a customer - a valuable one I'd imagine if you are paying two set of fees. If you're not happy with what is happenng use your clout - request a change of set, or change schools. FWIW, the school sounds awful.

Reflect on why you are keeping them there though - does it make you feel better about your own skills to have kids at a vv academic school? Would you feel you failed as a parent if you sent them elsewhere?

OP why are your DC getting so upset about this?

When handled properly by the school and parents, being in lower sets shouldn't be a cause for concern.

I have one twin in a much lower maths set than the other, but we make efforts to manage it properly. Certainly no one feels compromised by it.

Don't private schools finish earlier than in two weeks time. My niece is finishing on the 7th. That would mean even less time with this horrible teacher surely?

I can see why 'psychologically' it would be hard to move your twins to a different school, but try to imagine them at a school that nurtures them for who they are, one that doesn't humiliate in order to teach and one where they can also get a good education. As someone said up thread, please don't underestimate what happiness, self confidence and high self esteem can do for your children.

Education is not the be all and end all of life you know.

If I were you I would thank God that term ends very soon and not take your son to that meeting, so what if Mr X expects it - you are his mother, so you are in charge! What can he actually do to you/say to you when ds isn't with you? Give YOU detention!!

Good luck with it all.

You have got very good advice from all of the above and I agree with most of what has been said in the posts. I now gather you are talking about a private school and your children are under pressure because they can't keep up with work that is already two years ahead anyway.
Think carefully is that really the type of place you want them to be in...you are paying a lot of money for this pressure and treatment.
My Dd is younger and not in a private school but if I experienced what you are describing in any school I would be looking elsewhere. What is so good about doing work that is too advanced for your children and their age...if they are clever they will do well anywhere.
If children are unhappy at ten and feel unnecessary pressure then it makes their little lives miserable.
It is time enough for them to experience pressure and stress when they are in Secondary school.
Also, it seems to me that you are unintentionally putting pressure on your own child. If your child needs to go down to a lower set, let him do it he will at least get a sense of achievement when he completes the work and understands what is going on.
You mention that the new teacher will be coming back from Maternity leave..well sometimes motherhood makes teachers more understanding of the worries and problems other parents go through so I would not view that as necessarily bad.

How did it go? Was the Maths teacher very scary?

Sorry I didn't have time to post earlier. Had meeting with teacher plus DT1. It went fine - well, better than expected. Teacher did what I'd hoped in terms of trying to boost DT1's confidence. However, he also used it as an opportunity to suggest that DT1 doesn't always pay attention and that this is why he gets stuck and that he shouldn't use his 'processing difficulties' as an excuse but should persevere etc etc. He did keep alluding, unecessarily, to the top maths set being miles ahead of everything even his set are doing. Most importantly, however, DT1 came away feeling OK.

He also told us that he was planning to put both twins into the bottom set to help them as there are only 14 children in that set and frequent use of a TA as well as the teacher. DT1 is fine with this. BUT....oh dear...DT2 has been completely gutted since I told him and in tears most of last night. He's SO upset that here I am at 3.40am, wide awake and worrying about him.

DT2 has Asperger's traits and massive sense of needing to be in control etc. He definitely interprets demotion persoanl as failure. He's extremely conscientious and focused and is able to excel in another subject (in the G & T lot in that subject) and do very well in most others. So now my focus has turned to him and how best to help him....From what the teacher said, they will take into consideration the children's feelings about moving groups. So I'm half-minded to request that DT2 stays in the current set (getting the new teacher off maternity leave) and DT1 moves to the bottom set.

My DTs do better apart anyway but worried that DT1 will then be upset that he's in a group below DT2, even though the teacher stated bluntly last night that DT1 was the better natural mathematician, which I also agree is the case.

In response to those who ask why I keep DTs at this school, Swanriver is right - I focus on MN on things that worry me and offloading really helps, as does drawing on the collective wisdom of all MNetters!

There are lots of things that are good about DTs school and both love aspects of it. I wouldn't be posting however just to say things that are going well but of course there are things....DT2 excels in English/Literacy and the arts subjects and is a really good fit for this school. The teachers love him! There are loads of other children like him here, with Asperger's traits or full blown Asps - who are the 'geeky/little professor types' that in most other schools would be horribly bullied and ostracised. DT1 is a less 'good fit' in that sense but he adores the Drama and music, has the key role in the Yr 6 end of school production, adores the adventure society club that's like scouts but allows children to take more risks!

I HAVE seriously explored other local options and all schools seem to have their difficulties and the one they're at seems best for them. I agree however about how such a high performing school may make bright - but not genius level - children feel like they're not v clever. I went to a tiny, non academic, all girls school and as such, I 'rose to the top' easily. This then made it difficult going on to Uni where, because of the type of uni it was, I suddenly felt completely dumb. DTs will no doubt have other issues at a different kind of starting point.

Think you are mad
If DT2 needs to move to another group, then he should. Why are you going to try and keep him where he is struggling. He may not like it, tough.

My God, what are the other local schools like - they must be truly ghastly.

Read back over what you've posted-dt1 loves the drama and the adventure club-and that's it? Hours of homework and being unhappy in school but that's Ok because of the drama and the adventure club? When there are loads of outside school drama clubs and Scouts that he would have time to go to if he wasn't at this awful place.

But I know you won't listen. But for the sake of your children, please, please rethink.

He is old school and completely inappropriate for your son. Passing maths is not the be all and end all. I would also advocate asking for your son to be moved down a set. I know other children might make fun of him but if it helps him and reduces his anxiety then it will be a good thing. A good teacher adapts to the level of the children he or she teaches - and does not expect them to perform at levels inappropriate to them. Look forward. Do you absolutely have to speak to scary teacher tonight?The parent-teacher relationship should be a partnership, not one dominating the other. Good luck to your son! Bon courage!!

Thank goodness he is retiring soon. It is scandalous IMO that teachers can contribute to the "I can't do maths" feeling that is so endemic in young people. Teachers are supposed to be the ones who end that thought, not create it

I would also worry that the teacher was allowed to be like this. Obviously the school is excelling in maths, but surely they were prepared for the fact that some pupils might not be able to race ahead like that? It shows a massive misunderstanding of academic priorities too; rushing through the years is not actually giving even a mathsy child the best maths education. Anyway if they only wanted gifted mathematicians they should have done a heavy screening on selection. Not just criticised the ones who didn't live up to their ridiculously overblown expectations.

I think you should move them both down a set btw. I do understand how crushing it is but you cannot 'pander' to it when it could have a much worse effect in the long run.

It's ridiculous to assume that clever and or geeky children all get bullied at non selective state schools. You have complained so much in the past and it wasn't just about one maths teacher.

In some ways OP I do understand the difficulties in psychologically accepting that the most academic school that gets the best results is not the right one.

I think posters who deny this are being utterly disingenuous. People jump through ridiculous hoops to get in to the shcool of their choice ie the one they perceive as better. It's only natural.

However, sometime sit really does work out for the best. When DD was moving from prep school we kind of assumed (as did the school) that she would go to the local academically selective day school. Or the grammar school. Indeed she st for both and was offered places.

But...we also went to see another school. A much less selective girls school. The sort that MN poo poos. DD absolutely loved it. As did DH. I must admit that it was the happiest school I have ever been in. Lots of music, drama, art, sport. Smiling girls in ludicrous uniforms.

I still, though, wanted her to go to the selective school or at the very least the grammar.

DD and DH worked on me and eventually, against my better judgement, I relented.

And do you know it has been a resounding success from day one. DD loves it. And because she loves the environment her academic work is fantastic.

Now I'm not saying this will work for all children. MY DS will attend the absurdly academic day school when he leaves prep. But it will suit him. He's a different chap.

Horse for course, OP.

I can't believe the teacher compared your DT's! (And said dt1 was the better 'natural mathematician'). These things get back to each other and get discussed. Personally, I think it's unwise for them to be in a place which is small enough for them to be compared a lot, a place that makes comparisons, and to compare themselves a lot. I have twins too, and I am determined to minimise comparisons. Comparing can make you feel good/ feel bad. Once you get into that, there's no way you're going to end up feeling good about yourself because there's always people better than you. I just think from your posts about yourself and the posts about the school, that there is far too much 'comparing' going on. I believe kids need to feel good about who they ARE, not who they are compared to other people, and the best place for them is somewhere that helps them achieve this.

Merry Marigold, the boost to DT1 re. him being the better mathematician was told as a 'secret' that he mustn't tell his twin. Normally I'd disagree with this sort of thing but after nearly 4 yrs at this school, DT2 is a shining light, beloved by all, succeeding in everything - or if not (as in maths) is seen as conscientious and focused. DT1 hasn't 'shone' at anything, except his recent acquisiton of a lead part in the final school play. I've told him again and again that he's v mathematically minded, v musical, really good at making friends and looking after little ones but he always compares himself unfavourably to his twin and never believes me because, as he says, "of course you'd say that! You're my mother!"

However, I was delighted this morning when we were discussing how he'd feel is his twin remained in the same set and he moved down. He said he finally believed what I'd been telling him all along - that he was indeed 'good' at maths, as Mr X had said this spontaneously. If I can nurture that new belief, alongside the better help he'll get in the smallest, lowest set, then that'll be great.

Not sure how to respond to those who are saying take your DCs out of that school. To reiterate, I use MN mostlty to focus on the bits that are NOT OK, rather than declare the good stuff. It wouldn't make a viable post really if I kept saying what was all going well. I'd prefer a smaller school for DTs as this was my own experience as a child and I really benefited from having close connections with my teachers. However, the smaller schools locally mostly feed into boarding schools, which isn't an option for my DTs (wouldn't want them to go). The state schools are much bigger.

Their current school has been undergoing a massive transition and expansion the whole time they've been there. On balance, I still think it's the best option of all the options and neither of my sons can contemplate being separated from all their friends - many of whom have been in their lives since they were 3.75 yrs.

I'll see how things go in the senior part of the school from next September. It may be v different - with things better and things worse. Meanwhile, it helps to offload all my angst and worries on MN, as I also do in RL with the playground mums! It doesn't mean that everything is terrible - just that there are certain aspects that I dislike but when I hear about the experiences of other children in other schools, I think all schools have good and bad parts and DTs WANT to stay where they are - and this matters to me. I do get the sense that the school are trying to help improve DT1's self-confidence, even if certain individual teachers have made things worse at times.

Reup, I don't think all state school children would bully DT2 - just that the current school he's in is particularly good at bringing together lots of children like he is, so he stands out less and has a good group of like minded friends. He can walk around the playground, discussing politics with his equally geeky friends or decrying the need to play football, without anyone coming up and sneering at him. Yes, he could do that anywhere, potentially but he's really happy where he is. He just wants to be better at Maths!

Anyway, I'll stop now, as I'm rambling on. I just wanted to highlight that what I write here is focusing on the negative rather than giving the whole balanced view.

You keep saying that you only come on mumsnet to discuss the negative- and I understand that. But you haven't ever said anything that I would consider a positive about the school. Apart from one of your twins having a peer group. Which is good, obviously, but nothing that the school has done. Apart from that it seems universally ghastly. Up to and including "the secret"

Please tell us some good things?

Ok, Seeker, here goes: The Head of Pastoral Care is one in a million and she was fantastic with DT1 in Yr 4, as she also was his form teacher and taught him English. He developed a new group of friends that year. He soared ahead in Eng and sustained his level in maths. She's a teacher who is a key asset to the school. (Unfortunately she was away ill for a long time last year when problems for DT1 really began).

DT1's current form teacher (who he'll start to be with for maths soon too) is a great teacher also, runs the drama at the school and has been key in instigating the extra supports DT1 needs following his external psychology assessment - eg he can now use a laptop for his processing difficulties and gets more time in the exams.

DT1's current Eng teacher (who I certainly have moaned about on MN recently too!! for his lack of emphasis on spelling and grammar) is adored by DT1 as he's a vibrant, enthusiatic teacher. He really believes in the children and is full of positivity and I'm hoping this will reap rewards for DT1 in that subject as the yr goes on.

Expansion and developments have introduced fantastic facilities in IT and music technology, a new library, new classrooms.

Outside speakers - expert in their fields - often visit the school and enthuse the children in science or literacy or the children make visits to local uni sites and benefit from talks and demos there.

Extracurricular activities abound - with several lunchtime clubs and after school clubs and w/e activities too, trips abroad or away.

It definitely has a reputation for being THE place to be if you're geeky, 'eccentric' and loads of children who'd be 'lost' elsewhere, really thrive. I do put this down to the school and the kind of childrne it selects and it's a great 'fit' therefore for DT2 and children like him.

There's a good social mix in the school, unlike some other private schools, as it's based on academic ability rather than how 'posh' your parents are (in fact this was what put me off the alternatives locally).

....haven't time to think of more now.