dyslexia? Visual sequencing problem? second guessing myself.

[HattiFattner]

I had DS2s parent/teacher assessment this week. A very lovely and experienced teacher, who has taught both his siblings, and so knows our family.

SHe (and I) has concerns about DS2s reading, writing, spelling and numeracy.

On reading, he has not progressed from Y2 Sats level. He is in Y4. He is very hesitant, still does not really see the difference between "what" and "that" or "Where" and "There", but can pick up on very long words and decode them. Still hits a major block with certain sound blends - ai / ay in particular. Reads words from the middle - so last night, the word "rudely" became "Druley?" He was in reading recovery in infants.

His handwriting is a mess, which I have put down to him being a left hander. Teacher implied theres more to it than that - letters are transposed, badly formed letters, writes everything in very big letters (about 2 lines deep for each letter). He has done a writing/coordination scheme through the school last year, to try and get him better hand control.

Spelling he is 2 years behind his age. ALthough he gets 10/10 for every spelling test, he forgets the spelling when he has to write them in stories.

In numeracy, he also transposes numbers - so 315 becomes 351. He also writes numbers back to front P for 9 for example.

Teacher says she will now keep him on her radar. But im wondering (and second guessing) if DS has some form of dyslexia or visual processing issue.

And if so, what ....and how can I help him?

His confidence is taking a big knock because he is not moving on to the later books, he hates reading out loud and now avoids doing so ("I left my book at school" and "I finished it in class".)

He is otherwise a bright boy, funny, articulate. Just falling behind.

Edith - school were very supportive. DD had extra support since she started reception. They told me they thought she had dyslexia when she was in Y1. She didn't get a dx through an EP till she was in Y3 though. And that report told me exactly nothing.

The only EP report I've seen that was any good was DSs one that helped him get a dx of ASD. And the report itself didn't say anything useful, but without it we wouldn't have got a dx. (And a dx of ASD is useful, because it has bought with it support school couldn't have got without an official dx.)

The BABO I went to wasn't very good, and I wouldn't recommend him. I've done an awful lot of things with my kids. An awful lot. More than anyone I know. Most of them have worked. Most of them I recommend. Some of them haven't worked, but I'd still recommend people try. Some things I haven't tried yet, but I'd still recommend.

The only things really I don't recommend are:

• EP Reports
• Specialist Dyselxia Tutoring
• Blaming school

Because those are the things I really regret doing.

What I haven't done is accepted that DDs and DSs issues couldn't be resolved. And I was right, they can be cured.

Whereas the EPs only recommendation was that DD get a reader and a scribe. And that wasn't because he was a rubbish EP - it was because school had done everything the could do for her.

If I'd listened to his advice, DD would be in a lot worse position today.

So I guess that's my real message. If I'd listened to the EP, who diagnosed DD with dyslexiea, she'd still be unable to read and write today.

But then again there's my daughter who got diagnosed by a BABO and it did FA to help her.

What helped her was massing evidence, including evidence from EP's to use to force encourage the school to giver her more help.

I know people on here have strong views about this but the EP route is, I believe, the more well trodden one.

Has all the help she's had from school helped? Or does she still struggle with literacy?

Did you try any other treatments besides vision therapy?

There isn't much point in forcing the school to give more help if that help isn't effective.

Indigo - If I told you what I've done you'll hate me. You and I are very different in our approaches. In twenty years time we'll have the results of who's right... maybe both of us.

I've given up on her ever reading and writing. I focus entirely on other things - things she's good at. I hope she'll have a functioning level of literacy, I've fought to get the school to do what it can, she's got her statement and lots of one on one, but beyond that it was making her incredibly miserable to keep banging on about the things she couldn't do.

What's the point in 1-1 if you've given up on her reading and writing

Indigo: I sorry I misinterpreted the not playing ball comment and the time it took for you. And I'm glad you've found your way forward.

We used a different approach, and are also glad we did it. DC has made definite progress, and we had no problems with accessing support once they had evidence of need.

I'm not sure why I'd hate you.

I feel sorry for your daughter that she will never read and write.

I don't think there is any illiterate adult (of normal IQ) who doesn't wish they could read and write.

mrz - I fought to get all the help I can for her and it's still not working. I don't think anything will work. Teachers have said to me things like - overlearning, one on one, normally will bring up reading and writing, but not with her.

I think the bottom line is that no one really knows how to teach a child who stubbornly can't read and write how to. All you can do is try different things, different programmes. (Also she's in secondary school now so I believe it's pretty entrenched and her belief in herself is way down. That's why I always comment on these threads - don't leave it as late as I did!)

That's also why it's so important to keep records of what's been tried, if it showed any progress. It's also important to know that it's a minefield and the more voices you have on your side (and I'd include an EP as a great voice) the better.

"they" = the school.

Edith - I'm still fighting school to give DD less support.

They keep on wanting to give her a computer or to let her have a scribe :(

Katt - Overlearning doesn't work. School can't help 'dyslexia' - as you've found out.

If you want to help your DD you should speak to Tinsley House.

Out of all the many things I've tried, they are the place who've been the best.

Hello Indigo, hope you don't mind but have sent you a pm.
thanks

Dyslexia is a man made problem about having problem decoding and recoding the visual notation of speech, or the graphic symbols society chooses to represent the sounds of speech. A social construct.
Dyslexia is language dependent.
There are two types of Dyslexia; Alexia(acquire dyslexia) and Developmental Dyslexia. Most children have Developmental Dyslexia.
Developmental dyslexia has three cognitive subtypes: Auditory, Visual, and Attentional. Which means that an auditory processing disorder (listening disability), a visual processing disorder, an attention disorder or any combination of the three can cause the dyslexic symptom.

So any diagnosis of dyslexia is only a screening process for one or more cognitive disabilities, so all who have a diagnosis of the dyslexic symptom, need to identify the underlying cognitive cause of their dyslexic symptom which tends to have more serious symptoms than the dyslexic one.

you could have a look at What is behavioural optometry?

Forgot to mention that the our sequencing abilities are controlled by the same area of the brain as our auditory skills and asbilities, and those who have poor auditory processing abilities also tend to have poor sequencing skills.
So for example as part of my APD diagnosis i found out that I have the sequencing skills of the average 4 year old, which really mucks up my spelling lol, luckily the spell checker works quite well, but not so well if you spell an alternative word correctly.

Dyslexia is not a 'man made problem'. If you never had to read or write in your life you would still suffer from dyslexia, because it affects far more than just reading and writing.

It's a physical problem, caused by vision, auditory, dietary and neuro development problems.

And the way to cure it is to fix all of the underlying problems.

That is hard to do, takes a lot of time, money and patience. But it's perfectly possible.

Giving up on your child is the thing that is not possible.

But because it is a physical problem, and not an educational problem, school can't help.

And because it appears to be an educational problem, everybody starts off expecting school to help.

And most people stop there. Spend there entire life blaming school. Or telling their child that it doesn't matter, and they're good at other things.

So I guess in that way it's 'man made'. It's man made if your parents give up on you and don't get you the help you need.

thank you all for your thoughts and advice. I am going to start with a Behavioural Optometrist (have contacted one this afternoon) and take it from there - at least then I feel I have ruled out the "easiest" potential cause.

The Ed Psyche and school funding issues are a nightmare round these parts....Im a school governor and I know how we have waited months and months to get even a preliminary assessments of children - I fear that a school arranged EP will take forever and probably be next to useless if the school don't get additional funding anyway.

So before I shell out £400 on a private EP, I think Id like to try the BO approach. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Thank you Indigobell for pointing me in this direction - I'd never heard of this before.

Dyslexia is a man made problem, in societies that do not use the man made visual notation of speech communication system, there is no dyslexia.
However the underlying cognitive causes of the dyslexic symptom do exist, such as auditory processing disorders, visual processing disorders and attention disorders.
Dyslexia is only about having problems with reading and writing, anything else is may be another symptom of one of the underlying cognitive causes or something completely unrelated.
Diet has nothing to do with dyslexia.
Dyslexia is not a physical problem
Dyslexia is cognitive neurological issue.
Currently there are no cures for the underlying cognitive causes of developmental dyslexia, so you can not FIX them.

Schools can adapt their teaching methods to meet the learning needs of those who have auditory processing disorders, visual processing disorders, and attention disorders. But this requires teachers to have a greater knowledge of how to teach, and greater understanding of the neurobiology of how we learn. They need to vastly improve the quality of teacher training, so that teacher can be teachers rather then instructors.

Hattie,

Jumping in here. Most EPs wil score the child in the tests and diagnose on the basis of those scores.

They do not look beyond, at what is causing the poor scores.

No EP will talk about how hearing or eye sight or other things that might cause poor scores.

Most schools will accept the diagnosis as final and lower expectations of the child and the child will fulfill a self fulfilling prophecy.

My advice would be to look beyond a EP report.

I am in a similar situation to yours. I know my son is bright and capable. I also know my son has issues - I just don't know what.

Sheer luck put us in touch with a RR therapist and we found he has retained almost all his reflexes and has Neurological Developmental Delay. I don't know if he has anything else. I don't know how to find out. For me the only way forward to is to look at possibilities like APD, Vision, and get him checked for it.

But one thing I know. If I relied solely on school or the EP, I'd get nowhere much.

Jumping in here. Most EPs wil score the child in the tests and diagnose on the basis of those scores.

They do not look beyond, at what is causing the poor scores.

No EP will talk about how hearing or eye sight or other things that might cause poor scores.

Most schools will accept the diagnosis as final and lower expectations of the child and the child will fulfill a self fulfilling prophecy.

I cannot reiterate strongly enough how absolutely true this is!

As someone who works with struggling readers (which includes those who have been assessed by an EP as having Specific Learning Difficulty, a term for 'dyslexia' which doesn't invoke any legal requirements) I am continually frustrated by EP reports that tell me what I already know, that the child's phonic knowledge is poor, that they have poor short term memory and that they have difficulty in acquiring reading and writing skills... The advice given is usually a 'multi-sensory phonics programme' (unspecified) and ICT based accommodations. Which leaves no-one much the wiser as to how best to work with the child.

If the OP is still following this thread I suggest that his problems may, to a large extent, be caused by the method by which he was taught to read.

The fact that he had Reading Recovery in the infants indicates to me that the school uses a mixed methods, meaning emphasis approach and if it teaches phonics, does so along side looking for clues in pictures, words within words, learning words as 'wholes' and guessing from first letter of the word.

Reading words from the middle, or even from the end, backwards, is common among children taught this way because they do not understand the significance of the letters in the word (i.e that they represent 'sounds) or that they have to be 'read' from left to right. More crucially, the child will not have developed the eye tracking muscle strength needed for reading consistently from L to R all through the words. This is not a 'natural' skill, it has to be trained and practised.

Some very simple things can help to improve his reading

1. Don't allow any guessing from pictures and initial letters (or anything else). Don't give any clues whatsoever as to what the word might be. Help him to sound out and blend unfamiliar words.

2. Use a small piece of card to disclose the 'sounds' in words one at a time, from L to R before blending to produce the whole word. If he sounds out but still blends from the wrong place (e.g the middle!) get him to blend progressively through the word, blend first two sounds, then add the next one, then the next etc.
   Also use the card to disclose one word at a time as he reads if he has a tendency to miss words or drop from one line to another.

A behavioural optometrist may find more problems than just the weak tracking, but these simple things will help.

He will find this tiring and possible annoying. Persist, but keep sessions short as it is hard work at first.

If you're not sure about the letter/sound correspondences get an Alphabetic Code chart from www.phonicsinternational.com

'Reading words from the middle, or even from the end, backwards, is common among children taught this way because they do not understand the significance of the letters in the word (i.e that they represent 'sounds) or that they have to be 'read' from left to right. '

Reading Recovery absolutely reinforces the need to read and write words left to right in all parts (reading, writing and word building) of the daily half hour lesson. To suggest that children in Reading Recovery would not 'understand the significance of the letters in the word (i.e that they represent 'sounds)' is odd. I fail to see how this could be the case. Can you explain further what you mean?

I'm watching this a my dd1 has exactly the same problems as the OPs dc.

I took dd1 to our local opticians and spoke about my concerns (by the way, opticians do not test for tracking/convergence). The optician gave me a referal letter to take to the gp requesting further testing at the eye clinic at hospital. Dds appointment is in 2wks time.

maizieD

you live in a world of your own devoid of the reality of humans different cognitive skill sets and skill deficits.
Reading disabilities, regardless of what you wish to call them have an neurological cause. For many phonic blending is not cognitively possible so you would appear promote disability discrimination. The documentary about your mentor Ruth Miskins demonstrated your lack of willingness to understand those who can not use phonics, the torture that boy suffered. Pure egotistical ignorance.

Dolfrog,

I was researching Developmental Dyslexia (background - son has delayed reflex inhibition and his RRT report says neurological developmental delay, so wondering if he might have Developmental Dyslexia).

They say Developmental Dyslexia usually diminishes with age. Sure on the net one finds equal and opposite views :) (hoping son does not have DD or that if he does i will dimish!)