Admissions - straight line distance

[Wigeon]

In our area the distance rule is calculated in a straight line, and there are no catchments as such - in one year you might get in if you live 700m away, in another year you might have to live 500m (if there were lots of siblings for example).

Does anyone know how much this can vary from year to year? So, might it only vary from, say 500m to 600m, or could it vary as much as 400m one year and 1000m the next? Is this a how-long-is-a-piece-of-string question?

We live in an area where you've had to live close to the nearest Outstanding school to get in - around 500m last year in fact - but they said that was a high sibling year. We are 680m away and I'm trying to work out whether this means we might stand a chance of getting a place, or whether our chances are slim. Or to put it another way, is 680m a lot more than 500m, or not?!

pretty sure it can vary by a few hundred m - - I would say put in as one of your opitions but make sure you have at least one school you are likely to get in and is bearable as another choice - hopefully one of the admissions experts will confirm

For 2010 admissions our school was oversubscribed and put on a bulge class to take 30 (normally take 20)

For 2011 the intake was 15 - wherever you had applied from you would have got in

Apparently for 2012 they are looking at another bulge class

I think, sadly, it is a 'how long is a piece of string' question.

The answer is that it really depends on lots of factors, not the least of which is the population density. Moving from 500 to 680 metres may be only a couple of pupils but in a high density area it could actually represent a circle with 100 plus pupils.

It varies considerably, when we got in the distance was about 300m, but then they added bulge class so up to a mile, if they don't continue with bulge classes, then there are so many sibling who get priority that effectively even if you live next door you might not get in. Try asking parents at the school or school office if they have any estimate of siblings, in a small school your average observant parent with a child in the same year can probably give a fairly good estimate. Where we live the lea give details of # siblings and furthest child offered place in previous year. Apply to other schools too, maybe some less popular but still acceptable to you.

Thanks very much for all the replies. It's a residential area with families, so fairly dense, but the school is also quite near some playing fields, with obviously no one living there!

I shall get some string out and start measuring how long it is .

Wigeon - I'm surprised there's no data on the local education authority website. In Herts (where I am) they publish an outturn report after admissions each year which shows how many children were admitted under each rule and distances admitted on each rule. Herts also measure in a straight line.

www.hertsdirect.org/docs/pdf/o/priotrpt2011.pdf

If you say which LEA it is, someoen might be able to point you to the details.

Also, in Herts they have only been using the straight line measurement for one admissions year. You need to check when your LEA started using straight line measuring, as comparing the old measurement rules with new straight line rules would be meaningless.

Thanks MrsJAlfred. The problem is that I'm in Herts too, and as you say, it's therefore impossible this year meaningfully to compare admissions with previous years!

Maybe if you're in Watford you could just tell me which school to apply to so that I can stop trying to find a perfect solution to the admissions dilemmas!

Wigeon - The thing that's likely to affect things the most is the number of siblings. If I were you, I'd call the school and ask them if last year was a high or low sibling year. You can then push your luck and ask whether they anticipate more or fewer siblings. You can then do a VERY crude calculation of dividing the outside distance in 2011 by the average number of non sibling places for the past 2 years (the 2010 data is on the web - just google herts primary outturn report 2010).

Can you say which schools they are? Don't worry if you don't want to.

I trust you've checked the precise distance of your nearest school from your address using their calculator?

Everyone is saying that last year was high sibling year which gives me a little bit of hope...We did ask at one school about expected siblings and they actually had a really specific idea (20 siblings coming through from the nursery) but I don't know why we didn't ask at every school - that's a good tip, thank you.

I don't mind sharing which schools because I am under no illusions that I'm anonymous here! Any views very welcome and gratefully received! (in a PM?). Do you know the schools round here?

Parkgate Infants - nearest but v unimpressed with head. Seems to have very few extra activities (clubs, one-off things, trips etc) going on. Also layout of school is odd. Ofsted Good.

Knutsford - second nearest but oversubscribed. Ofsted Outstanding. Very impressive new head. Our ideal option but might not get in due to distance.

Beechfield - Ofsted Satisfactory, not really going to consider it for that and other reasons.

Cherry Tree - Ofsted Good but rather dodgy area (think we might be the poshest in the school). Going to visit next week.

Nascot Wood - Ofsted Outstanding, bit tatty school but very nice head, almost certainly unable to get a place as I think we live too far away.

All you can really do is put your 3 schools in order of preference and see what happens I'm afraid. Not ideal but apart from moving next door to your preferred school it's pretty much all you can do.

Pootle, I know, I know.

Re the Ofsted rating - don't worry, we are looking at the rating in conjunction with all other relevant factors rather than as the sole determining factor. DH is a (secondary) teacher and has just been Ofsteded about 6 weeks ago (he was even observed by one of the inspectors) so we are relatively sensible about it.

Wigeon- Hmmm. It looks as though you have almost no chance of getting into Knutsford if it's not your nearest school. Even though you may live less far away than someone for whom it IS there nearest school, they would still be ahead of you (Rule 5). Nobody got in under Rule 6 last year. Ditto Nascot Wood.

Are you sure Parkgate is your nearest?

Parkgate L5 results (obviously this is Juniors not infants but I presume they feed through from infants to juniors without reapplying for it as a separate school).

www.education.gov.uk/establishments/urn/117162/parkgate-junior-school/performance

Beechfield (It's already crossed off your list and I can see it'spossible something is not right with that school)

www.education.gov.uk/establishments/urn/117094/beechfield-school/performance

Cherry Tree have excellent L5 results. I would want to go and have a good look at this school. And it is possible to get in under Rule 6.

www.education.gov.uk/establishments/urn/117339/cherry-tree-primary-school/performance

I didn't find Ofsted reports remotely revealing.

I like a combination of gut instinct (does it feel like a nurturing and creative environment?) together with a look at the L5 SATs scores in context. If a school's L4 scores aren't a humungous percentage, so what if their L5 score is half decent. This surely proves that they're teaching very well to a cross section of abilities. Which is great. Some schools seem to appear to be top of the league tables because they are up in the 90%+ region for L4 SATs but they barely register on the L5 scores and that makes me worry. Which just makes me shudder and think Ugh! A whole school full of tomorrow's middle managers

I live in H arpenden by the way.

Anyway, hope this ramble has helped a bit.

Thank you so much, MrsJ, that's actually incredibly helpful. I had no idea that you could do lots of whizzy comparison stuff with results and different schools on the DoE website. Have been playing around with that - very revealing.

That's very interesting to see Cherry Tree's results, the more impressive considering it has a much more challenging catchment than Nascot Wood or Knutsford, and is outperforming them on some results. We already have a tour booked to see it next week.

Also I wasn't reading the outturn report as well as I should have been, so thank you for that. I hadn't quite realised that no one got into Knutsford under rule 6 - I'd been looking at max distance, but that only applied to admissions under rule 5, so since we'd be applying under rule 6, knowing the max distance last year is a bit irrelevant to us.

Parkgate Infants is indeed our nearest school according to the Herts online admissions distance calculator thingie. According to the head on our tour it is a separate school entirely to Parkgate Junior (and on a completely different site) and you have to apply again to the Junior school. But as we are almost on the doorstep of the Juniors (but not the Infants), and it's not crazily over-subscribed, I am almost sure we'd get in. Having visited both Knutsford and Parkgate, my gut is feeling good about the former and not so good about the latter...

We have been scouring the Ofsteds and my DH (a secondary teacher) reckons on that alone, the Parkgate Ofsted is more impressive than Cherry Tree (although both are Good). But he was similarly unimpressed with the Parkgate head on the tour....gah!

Thanks again .

Have you asked Knutsford how often they've taken applicants from category 6 in the past? If they have done so occasionally I would put that down as first choice on the off chance that you might get in. I would then put Parkgate as 2nd choice as it is your nearest school which brings a lot of benefits even if it isn't the absolute best school. Then probably Cherry Tree as it sounds like the teachers are doing a good job and that you'd have a chance of getting in. I wouldn't bother with Nascot Wood as it sounds like too much of an outside bet and would basically be a wasted preference.

Ofsted inspections/reports are a bit peculiar, I find they bear little resemblence to the school they describe. Perhaps your husband is able to decode them better than me, as he's in the business, loike. My older sons went to a primary school that was rated Ofsted satisfactory but in reality it was superb (my eldest son is now at Meds school). My younger children now attend an Ofsted Outstanding school and've concluded my understanding of the word 'outstanding' is definitely not the same as Ofsted's; I now read-in 'bland'.

Anyway, let us know how you get on looking at that other school.

Thanks Ghoul. I really should ask Knutsford that, shouldn't I? Good idea, thanks. I am perfectly assertive in my professional life so I don't know why I hadn't thought of that.

I would definitely prefer an easy walk to school (ie Parkgate) - what benefits would you say being at the nearest school brings? The two obvious to me are: obviously it's nice to have a short school run, and less commuting esp if you are trying to get to work after the school run, and friends are likely to be very local to you.

I really can't decide if it's worth going with Cherry Tree (presuming the visit next week is a success) for the much better results, even though it would probably take us at least 20 mins to walk (so a 40 min round trip), presuming DD1 is compliant and walks fast, especially while I have DD2 in tow (currently 6 months) and can't go on bicycles for several years.

Am trying not to worry about it too much until we have actually visited the damn school!

MrsJ - yes, I am trying not to get too hung up on Ofsteds. I do worry about a "satisfactory" though - quite often the reports seem to basically say "this school doesn't really teach children to read or write, or anything really". So that's interesting that your older children went to a "satisfactory" school that you were very happy with (although this must have been around 15 years ago?).

Ghoul - good idea. The 2010 outturn report is still online, you will be able to see if they admitted anyone under Rule 6 for 2010.

I think there's a lot to be said for going to your local school. I have always done so and the benefits are huge.

Older children are now 19 and 15 so much less than 15 years ago since they left their satisfactory primary. Now 15 year old went directly from satisfactory Ofsted school to a highly selective and v academic Herts boys independent day school. It never occcured to me to get a tutor as he was brilliantly taught at his satisfactory school. :)

Wigeon - if it was me, I would go to your nearest school unless you really disliked it intensely. Remember the test results are testing people at the top of the school, a lot can change.

I think that another key consideration is that you have a younger sibling. Whilst you might get a place at a school not your nearest school for your elder child, when it comes to the younger child you might not. It depends on how much admission criteria priority is given to siblings, which in Herts is not bad but there is never any guarantee of a place for a younger sibling.
If Parkgate was not your nearest school I would also be saying watch out for how the infant / junior schools are treated in terms of admission priority. The two schools are linked by Herts so you will get priority for the eldest in going to the junior school and you will also get priority because of the sibling link for the younger daughter. For others in other LAs this is not always the case and people just need to be wary of this.

I do the same MrsJAlfredPrufrock and compare their level 5 results to The Times' Parents Power rankings for independent schools. My local CoE school ranks quite highly but we are almost bottom of their criteria but it will still be our 1st preference.

Thanks for all the replies again! . Thanks for your sage words admission although I think we should be ok with DD2 in this case. Will investigate The Times' thing Ilelo!

Well, we've now visited Parkgate Juniors (the linked school to the unimpressive Parkgate Infants) and not only is it right on our doorstep (think 45 seconds if you run!) but it was lovely. Big, light classrooms (Victorian), two Year 6s showed us round by themselves and they were fantastic. Head seemed great. Although their SATS aren't fantastic (well, compared to the two Outstanding schools in the town). Although by no means terrible.

Also went to Cherry Tree today - have looked more carefully about their level 5 SATS for 2009, 2010 and 2011 (not on the DoE website but in the school's own brochure) and the amazing 2010 stats seem to be a bit of a anomaly. The school itself seemed very nice - shown round by the fantastic school secretary who seemed to know at least as much as you'd expect a head to know. Children rehearsing the Christmas play - little angelic voices ringing out as we sat in the reception! Very well-stocked library. A large site with loads of outdoor space. Two classes housed in portacabins. Rest of school slightly ageing. Expanding from this year from a one-form entry to two-form in Reception, and continuing as two-form as Reception move up the school. So about to undergo a period of (incremental) change. A bit of a walk away.

Knutsford haven't admitted anyone for 2 years under rule 6...Will get round to asking them if they ever have!

I think we are erring towards Knutsford as 1st choice, then Parkgate, then Cherry Tree. The other schools are either pretty poor (Beechfield, Berrygrove) or too far (Nascot Wood, Highwood). Several people have mentioned how good it is to go to your local school - as well as the convenience and local friends, is there anything else?