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Primary education

Join our Primary Education forum to discuss starting school and helping your child get the most out of it.

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Original poster

Does my Ex have any legal say in the school I choose for our DS?

21 replies

organiccarrotcake · 18/11/2011 21:02

Quick precis:

DS1 is at a state school. I'm divorced from his father and re-married. Ex has V little to do with DS but has parental responsibility together with me as we were married at the time of birth.

DH and I want to move DS1 to a local, excellent private school as he is not getting on well at the state school. He's done the assessment and got a place.

Ex is stating that he will not allow DS1 to go. His current stated reasons are "single sex school will turn him gay" and "single sex school pupils are not able to interact with the real world". Okaaay. I think more likely, he's not prepared to pay but doesn't want to admit it. If he doesn't pay I'm guessing we have no right to force him to and we will have to cover the fees. Let's assume we can.

Can anyone give me any real idea of whether he legally can stop us from moving DS1 to the new school? My guess is that ultimately it would need a court to decide the best school for him if we couldn't decide between us, but does anyone know for sure?

Thanks :)

OP posts:

workshy · 18/11/2011 21:05

legally he has a say over the choice of school for your DS as he has parental responsibility

if you can afford to why not offer to pay and see if his response changes?

Original poster

organiccarrotcake · 18/11/2011 21:12

Thanks workshy

Because at the moment it would be a terrible stretch for us to pay the full fees, so I'd like to try to persuade him to contribute to his son (and he's not short of cash). In the end, if we have to, we will pay.

I think what I need to know is, to stop us changing would he have to go to court and persuade a judge that his current state school (or another option) would be better than the new private school?

OP posts:

CardyMow · 18/11/2011 21:33

No, he would just have to apply for a prohibited steps order and state that he feels that the current school meets your ds's needs. Or that the private school was to far away etc. If he could persuade a judge of anything like this, then you will be unable to move your dc. Also, there is NO WAY he can be forced to pay a PENNY for school fees - the 15% maintenance is all that is obligatory, any extra is at his discretion. If you can't cover the school fees alone - I'd think VERY carefully before moving your ds - what if you or your current partner were made redundant? Would you STILL be able to cover the fees, or would that mean moving your ds's school again? Because your ex could also use that as an argument.

I have a prohibited steps order AGAINST me, preventing me from moving my DS1 to another state school...

Original poster

organiccarrotcake · 18/11/2011 21:56

OK, so I've just done a search on this and it seems that it still needs to be rubber stamped by a judge - ie he has to have good reason to stop him from moving?

Presumably I'd have the right to reply? So for instance I could prove (I have proof) that the current school isn't meeting his needs, if that's the path he chose?

What reasons does your ex have to stop your son from moving to the other school, hunty?

OP posts:

MiniMonty · 19/11/2011 01:03

organiccarrotcake, if you have a residence order your Ex has no say over which school you send DS to unless he has a demonstrable strong case for objecting. However, as mentioned by HuntyCat, if he applies for a specific issues order (prohibited steps) he can ask a judge to grant an order prohibiting you from moving DS to the specific private school. Unless he has very strong and demonstrable reasons most lawyers would advise him that his chances of persuading a judge are very slim and that he would have to have something better than "single sex school will turn him gay" for the case to get into court.

You can get legal advice on this by contacting any high street lawyer and asking for an intitial (free) consultation.

You should also know that the private school will probably require you and the Ex to sign all the paperwork for a place at school and a contract guarenteeing the fees.

prh47bridge · 19/11/2011 01:24

Yes, he is entitled to a say in your son's education. That comes with having PR but it isn't the same as giving him a veto. Contrary to what the last poster says, the fact you have a Residence Order does not take away his right to a say. There seems to be a common belief that the courts will almost always side with the parent with care when there is a dispute. I'm afraid that isn't true.

If the two of you can't agree you can apply for a Specific Issue Order to get permission to move your son to this school or, as HuntyCat says, he can apply for a Prohibited Steps Order to stop you moving your son. It will then be up to the court to decide what is in your son's best interests.

Contrary to what HuntyCat says it is possible for the courts to order your ex to pay some or all of the fees on top of the 15% of take home pay that the CSA would collect if you use them. School fees are one of the specific exceptions in the law which allow the courts to intervene and order additional payments. However, that would be a separate order for child maintenance and there is no guarantee you would get that, so you should start from the assumption that you won't get anything from your ex.

Original poster

organiccarrotcake · 19/11/2011 11:30

OK, all really helpful, thank you very much.

I think that the best course of action is to get some legal advice on the details of my specific situation. I really appreciate all your replies, thank you :) At least I have some idea where we stand.

OP posts:

clam · 19/11/2011 15:14

Well, leaving aside his ridiculous assertions about single-sex schools, could it be that he's objecting because you have assumed he will contribute to private schooling fees when he wasn't consulted about it first?

DownbytheRiverside · 19/11/2011 15:22

Are you going to be asking him for more money than he is currently paying in support, in order to pay the fees?
Does he have full PR?
Can you give him more experience of the school, visit together and so he can see why it would suit your son so well. Give him your specific reasons for the choice and see if he can counter your arguments with specifics rather than 'Oo-er, he's going to turn gay on me'

MincePieFlavouredVoidka · 19/11/2011 15:31

I agree with Clam, maybe he doesnt want to/Cant pay the fees?

Original poster

organiccarrotcake · 19/11/2011 18:04

He has full PR (we were married at time of birth, he's on the BC).

We can afford the fees without him if required, at a big push, but of course would prefer him to contribute (and why not...). He can afford it, easily (he's a senior consultant). He absolutely doesn't want to and appears to think it's ok for him to get a mediocre education when we are in a position to offer him a superb one. It's not a hot housing school. It takes each boy, works out their personal talent and brings that out. Class sizes 20 kids, max, but more usually 12-15. Sport every day which is so good for kids, especially boys who need to MOVE.

I told him some months ago that I was worried abut the current school and needed to look at other options, including this one. He declined to go to the school's open day but did visit afterwards when I told him how amazing it is and arranged for him to visit with us. I've absolutely tried to include him all the way but he's refusing to enter into discussions.

OP posts:

CardyMow · 19/11/2011 18:17

He got the prohibited steps order on the basis that I am unable to drive due to my epilepsy, and HE doesn't drive because he 'doesn't do cars' . And he has mid-week contact where he picks DS1 up from school, and he drops DS1 at school on a Monday morning after his weekend contact. The judge granted the prohibited steps order - until DS1 is 18yo, even though DS1 will ave to leave his current school at 11. some more.

All of which means that I will be unable to leave my immediate area until DS1 is 18yo.

I'm under legal discussion at the moment as to whether Ex-H has the legal right in respect of the prohibited steps order to prevent DS1 from SITTING the 11+ exam, and preventing him from going to the (very good) Grammar school (CRGS) if he gets offered a place...

I fucking HATE family courts.

Original poster

organiccarrotcake · 19/11/2011 20:22

That's utterly shit :(

OP posts:

Ghoulwithadragontattoo · 20/11/2011 01:05

OP - In terms of getting exH to pay the fees I fear you'll be on a sticky wicket. If DS was already at private school when you split up or you already had his name down in agreement with DH then I could imagine the court forcing him to pay. But here you are unilaterally taking him out of the state school that your ex prefers for him. Why should he pay for that?

sashh · 20/11/2011 05:11

He can't stop you moving him but he doesn't have to pay.

Original poster

organiccarrotcake · 21/11/2011 11:04

ghoul I think he should pay because the reason he doesn't want him to move (I can only assume as he won't tell us any actual reasons) is that he's a stingy git who wants his own money more than he wants to support his son.

He's not well off - he's wealthy. Big difference. I mean, very wealthy. He could pay 1/2 the fees without noticing. I suppose it's the principle that he should be doing what is clearly best for his son, whereas actually he's not bothered about him (in all areas, not just schooling). We have extensive proof of the school's failing him and it's the best state school in the area. It's not just that we happen to think that dear Lancelot deserves de very bestest school, de little dumpling, and ex is living in squalor desperately trying to meet the maintenance bills.

That said, I totally understand that what I feel is the honorable thing to do is irrelevant from a legal perspective :)

And - what I'm really interested in his whether he can stop us and lots of useful info from you ladies, so thank you.

OP posts:

prh47bridge · 21/11/2011 12:52

sashh - Completely wrong. He may be able to get a court order to stop the OP moving her son. The courts may order him to pay some or all of the fees, but I agree with Ghoul that this may be an uphill battle.

organiccarrotcake - If his income is very high you may be able to get a court order forcing him to pay more maintenance than the CSA's figure regardless of whether or not your son goes private.

mummytime · 21/11/2011 13:25

But the best State school in the area may not be the "best State school for your DS in the area".
I would suggest you get proper legal advice.

dramafluff · 28/03/2012 16:34

Independent schools are rightly very nervous over cases involving court orders to pay feesn as these are not set in stone for ever until the sky falls down and open to all sorts of problems, including your ex's ability to pay now or in the future. They will be more than happy for you to sign an agreement with your DH and you will be party to the contract with the school and thereby responsible for the fees. You cannot force your ex to sign such an agreement meaning that from the school's point of view, they would absolutely not pursue him should the necessity ever arise for unpaid fees. The school will not make any kind of judgement over one parent than the other, nor discuss the merits on either side. I think you should forget trying to force him to pay school fees - it will only antagonise your situation with him further and offer you no financial protection against your future inability to pay school fees (there are insurances out there to cover redundancy etc that I would strongly advise you to investigate if you go down the private route). I accept his reported objections are mad (really!), but I imagine they will become more succinct when he is properly advised if this comes down to court.

Whether you go private or not, the real sticky point for you is his obvious intention to impress his will in terms of parental responsibility (which he has the absolute right to do). This can be extremely tricky for a school - what if dad turns up unannounced etc or gets in touch with the school for information or to discuss decisions concerning your child? The school, wherever your child goes, will want to see all orders pertaining to the child in all aspects of his life - residency etc etc.

Good luck with it all and keep us posted - sounds like you are in for a bumpy ride!

dramafluff · 28/03/2012 16:35

I know this is really old btw - just dying to know what happened and whether everything worked out for you!

Heswall · 28/03/2012 19:45

I needed £35k to cover DD's school fees and my ex spent £60k fighting to not have to. I wouldn't bother with legal advice if you can afford the school mI've him, the state school place will be gone and no judge will make him go back. Oh and don't say any more to the ex the element of surprise is vital.

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