Renting in catchment to get sibling in?

[bubblebubblebubblepop]

DD1 is in Yr2 at school. We are now applying for DD2 to start in Reception next year. However she is unlikely to get in as there are more children in catchment than places available (75 children for 60 places according to council). It is also a very popular school and so expect most catchment children to put it down as first choice. We live out of catchment and siblings out of catchment are after catchment (siblings and non-siblings).

DD1 didn't get into our catchment school as that was also very oversubscribed and we didn't live close enough to get in (we stayed on waiting list even after she started school and she still hadn't got in by the end of Reception year so we took her off the list as she was so happy at school).

We are now thinking of renting in catchment for a year (this Dec to next Dec) to get DD2 into the same school. We would really live there, not just rent a flat in name, but would leave our current house unoccupied and move back at the end of next year, after the whole Admissions process and the first term.

We don't want them at different schools as DD1 won't be old enough to get to school on her own next year and it's not physically possible to do 2 school runs. There is no other school close enough to do it (again, our catchment school is oversubscribed again this year - it's Outstanding OFSTED) so we don't even know how far we would have to travel for DD2 if she got a different school.

I know lots of people say this is a terrible thing to do but I think most people do that to get their eldest in, here we are trying to get our youngest in and keep both children together so I can take them both to school.

Is this allowed? Does anybody know anything about it?

Thanks in advance.

out of interest, bubblebubble, do you live in london? Is the schools situation especially problematic here?

It is the council's fault for not having provided enough school places. Like you living out of catchment can "take" a place of a child living in catchment, I am sure the same happened to you. Some siblings of children out of your outstanding school cathcment that you live near must have got in instead of your DD1. And besides, all you are doing is moving closer to your daughter's school, right?

ninani - People come up with all kinds of justifications for breaking the rules. Just because others are doing it doesn't make it right. If the OP does do what she is proposing she could end up in a substantially worse position than if she was honest and applied from her home address.

The school will no doubt notice aswell, as they already have the detials of your current house and may get suspicious when you change it just before applications close and then change it back a year later.

I think we will try and rent and keep our house on the Market. We have been trying to sell as we genuinely would move but can't sell in time now. We will rent permanently and hopefully will have sold our house by time DD2 starts school so will only have 1 address. We don't want to tent house out else it'll be harder to sort out selling a house with tenants in it.

So difficult! Thanks for all your comments, made us think more and we will move properly, better morally, just we need to sell our place and chain collapsed a few months ago. Just need to keep trying!

BTW, not in London, in Midlands.

go for it ! there is no law against playing the system.You are following the letter of the rules that is all they care about.Thousands of families do it every year.Bit puzzled why you don't want to rent out your current home though?

but the op is taking up residence there for a year!!!!
The LEA are talking about where parents take out a short term let of a shoe box and don't move in properly

spiderpig8 - The LA quoted by CustardCake don't talk about whether or not the family moves in properly. They talk about whether or not they intend to take up permanent residence. So, even if you move in, renting for a year with the intention of moving back to your original address at the end of that time would clearly be a breach of this LA's rules.

The Admissions Code is clear that places can be withdrawn even after the child starts school if the LA believe the application was fraudulent or deliberately misleading. Moving into rented property for a year then moving back to the house you own elsewhere falls into this category.

The OP is not "following the letter of the rules". Like it or not, she is clearly breaking the rules.

Many LAs treat parents moving into rented accommodation shortly before the deadline for applications (i.e. about now) with some suspicion. If the LA find that the parents still own their previous home they may well conclude that the application is misleading. And, as CustardCake says, if this is a popular school it is quite possible other parents will raise concerns with the LA, prompting them to take a closer look. This may work out for the OP but she may find herself in a worse position than if she had applied using her current home address.

I think other parents will notice so you may find your child at a bit of a disadvantage in the future. For example when playdates are organised and your child isn't local it will spark questions. People will view cynically your temporary move into the catchment area. I've already noticed it in my son's current nursery (he's not got to reception yet). A number of families with older siblings in the main school are clearly outside the catchment area yet their younger siblings in the nursery will be guaranteed a place in the main school for reception because of sibling priority. It is apparent from the proportion in this situation that the system is being 'worked' so it doesn't impress the more local parents. One of the attractions of a local school is local playdates for the children so you will need to be prepare for your children to have fewer playdates if parents can't be bothered to travel.

im in a similar situation. DD1 is in a school taking 60 each year. DD2 starts next year and is in the attached pre school. We are also out of catchment. Our school also had 75 catchment applicants last year! (not midlands though). We are also unlikely to get in next year :(. We tried to sell our house too but failed.

What i will way is that i advise you not to do what you're planning. This year 2 people lied - one lost her place before school started. The other is currently being investigated and her child is possibly going to get kicked out! When the child started reception people knew where she had lived and gossip travels fast. Even though she said she split with the dad (think lea's are used to this one now!) parents of kids who didn't get in gathered tons of evidence.

Her name is mud now and the WHOLE schools knows about her!!! If 15 catchment kids lose out to you (in addition to out of catchment siblings who live closer than you), you will definitely be found out. Even if you get away with it legitimately - parents will hate you!

It would be better to appeal and hope for a transfer later on during the school years - thats my plan!

Also just to add - you know how desperate you feel as a sibling applicant- others will be the same and so will likely be keeping 'watch' of their competitors!! As crazy as it sounds, in my school i know who all the other sibling applicants are and where they live! As we are closer i will make sure my dd gets in above any of them - i'm more than prepared to report them all if they lie, as would they in the same situation. Other parents may be keeping tabs too.

Not to mention current parent friends of catchment applicants who are not yet there iyswim.

As your dd is in Y2 - if you are happy with the catchment school would you consider appealing for a y3 place there (they can go over 30 in Y3) and so get DD2 in as a sibling- presumably you'd have priority as you are in catchment? I would do this if my catchment school was okay but its rubbish so will happily do 2 schools!!!

Do you know what the intake is likely to be this year as presumably the 75 figure is based on last year?

Sorry to hear you're in similar situation. When you say not to do what I'm planning I assume you mean what I originally posted? Have spoken a lot to DH and you'll see I posted later on to say we're going to try and rent long-term and rent ours out or sell it. Our name can't be mud if we've sold our family home and come off property ladder, I hope.

Yes the 75 catchment is for this years intake as I asked school and council. But of course some might go private or out of catchment to church school.

Have thought about moving dd1 to catchment but didn't realise max 30 per class doesn't apply in Y3! Interesting! Will enquire further....

Thanks v much and good luck with your application too.

i think even renting long term - when just before the allocation of places will be seen as dodgy by some. I'm not judging - we considered it ourselves! Ours school has its own deadline (even though they stick to LEA one officially) so the deadline is in 3 weeks so we have no time to do anything and far too many people know me, including the head!

However we are now hoping to just appeal every year with the aim of trying to get dd2 in at Y3, which the head said is almost definite as they always go up to 33/34 per class (there are 2 classes) by Y3.

How do they know what the intake is for this year as the official deadline isn't til January so lots of people won't have applied yet??

Are they going off the number of forms the school has sent out? Last year our school thought they had only 50 applicants by the "school deadline" i.e. people who had put their name down with the school, but by January (official deadline), 70 more applicants applied (not all 1st choice) and all had to be considered as the deadline by the council is the real one. All out of catchment siblings lost out and not 1 won an appeal! Its so awful!!!

Good luck :)

Sunnyday,
Many schools keep a record of parents who have expressed an interest in the school and therefore have an idea of how many pupils are likely to put them down for admission. As you say what the school thinks they have and what they actually get are two different things.
The school does find out after the cut of date for application, but before the date of places being allocated, how many 1st, 2nd and 3rd preference applications they have had, but not who they are.

thanks admission

i just wish my school would tell us to end our misery!! Its the only RC in town so anyone who is catholic and putting it as 1st choice will submit by the school deadline in 2 weeks - non catholics are not competition as so far down criteria. Knowing that the staff, PTA members (my friends) will all know dds fate and i wont is awful - april is so far away!

I did want to ask you admission (sorry for thread hijack bubble) : the school is accepting the same proof of address as last year despite applicants passing their checks last year. Last year they asked for child benefit letters and people changed theres to addresses of family members. They have since been caught but the proof of address hasn't been changed!! Despite people asking the head to ask for bills, he wont!

Whats the best thing to do about this given the head is clearly burying his head in the sand!? Just use it in appeal if dd doesnt get in?
thanks

The school deadline is completely arbitrary and illegal, the only deadline is that for the whole of the LA that you are in, unless it is a deadline for submission of the supplementary form.
Nor do the school know who has got a place and who has not. What happens is that the LA compiles a list of every pupil who requests a place at the school, whether it is 1st, 2nd or 3rd preference. This list, which does not have what preference was put on the form is then submitted to the admission authority (in this case, as a catholic school, this is the school governing body) and the admission authority then put the list into order based on the admission criteria. This list is then resubmitted to the LA, who then check the preferences and actually set up the pupils who will be offered a place. Obviously if you have submitted a supplementary form and live next to the school then there is a fair chance that they will get a place but there is no guarantee.
The school will only find out who actually has the places about a week before the parents do.
I think that as far as addresses are concerned if you absolutely know that some have submitted false information then you should report them and hopefully they will loose the places in the school. If you cannot prove it, then I am afraid that it is quite difficult to do anything. However at appeal I would definitely put the school on the spot by asking them to show that they properly looked at all the child benefit letters, given the issues that arose last year and what extra safeguards have been put in place this year.

Why on earth would the PTA need to know sunnyday123

I think you should write to your LEA and say you had your DC1 on the list for the local school and that you don't want that uncertainty again. That if they don't allocate the same school (which wasn't your first choice) you will not be able to takethem both to school.

Surely the fact you had to send DC1 to your second choice should give you some sort of priority.

i have applied online but the majority have handed the forms to school so surely they will see the rank order? although i suppose most who hand directly to school will name them as first choice anyway.

The LEA deadline is on the school website but their own one was written on forms sent to families (although they do accept forms til the lea one).

Because most forms were submitted by the end of the first week dec, last year the school knew early february what their situation was as i spoke to the head and he warned me that they were splitting families (think he was giving me the heads up to try move house!). Also i presume the situation must have been discussed widely across school as my friends on the pta were aware of just how over subscribed the school was and what a 'nightmare the head was having'!. One of my mates has said she will def know before the deadline and will let me know how its looking- but if its bad news she may decide not too!

People have been reported this year but only after they have started school and siblings lost out - most kids who didn't get their younger siblings in took both kids out and so are not on site to investigate! Not all did though - a couple of families are pursuing this angle and trying to 'snatch' places back! My concern is that finding out in sept its too late in terms of siblings distress.

TBH is have found the LEA and school (VA) have a lack of concern and really dont seem to be taking fraudulent addresses seriously - their angle seems to be that parents have to snitch on others but i would have thought if a school has a 3 year history of people lying (it does) then the responsibility lies with them?

Thanks for the advice!

Parents should be returning the form to the LA, not the school. The school should really be telling parents to do that. If they do accept the form they should forward it to the LA without looking at it. However, as you say, it is a fair bet that almost all of those who give the form to the school name it as their first choice.

The more you say about this school the more worried I become that they don't understand how admissions work and may be breaking the Admissions Code. As Admission says, they should not have their own deadline. There is only one legal deadline - 15th January. They cannot know they are splitting families as they simply put the children in rank order. They may assume that the first 30 children (or whatever their PAN is) will be admitted but this depends on whether or not this school was first choice for those children. It sounds like far too much information is being given out about the process. There is absolutely no way your mate should know whether or not you have a place before the deadline. She should not even know whether you are in the top 30 and she cannot know whether or not you have a place until the LA has completed its work.

At the very least the things you report raise a serious concern that this school may be ranking children using factors that they are not allowed to use by law and may also be failing to meet their responsibilities in other ways. It sounds to me like there is a case for referring this school to the Schools Adjudicator and making sure the LA is aware of the school's behaviour.

I believe you live near me. Could you identify the school involved (PM me if you prefer)? I would like to take a closer look.

i have inboxed you PRH - i have to nip out now but will check back later! Thank you!