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Trying to see the positives in Biff Chip etal

150 replies

Ohgoonthenpouranother · 18/11/2011 18:30

My DD school is teaching jolly phonics. She knows all her sounds now.
The school also uses these ORT books. They are ink stamped with the school logo which also has the date on and they are clearly over 20 years old. They do not use any other scheme.
We have now had all the purple books (there's a list on the back) and seem to be doing a second round. Yawn.
Also they are doing a word book of 45 high frequency words. They have not started with easy words, 'this' & 'away' being within first group learnt. I have found this list via mumsnet and I am bewildered to say the least. DD does not seem to be 'getting it' what ever it is! She is a bright girl, but I see no progression and this second round of kipper has finished her off!

Is it a good reading scheme? Should I trust school or do something myself to encourage her.

OP posts:
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TalkinPeace2 · 22/11/2011 22:40

gaelic
how old are your kids?
Mine are 11 and 13
DD was an avid reader and rattled through ORT by year 4
DS flatly refused to read until year 2 and then caught up
by year 5 both were 'free readers' having acquired confidence and a desire to read more interesting stuff
that is the PURPOSE of a scheme - it is a grounding, not the be all and end all
chillax (as DD would say)

gaelicsheep · 22/11/2011 22:44

DS is 5. We're sick of ORT already. All the class move on at the same pace so he won't get the chance to "rattle through them" unfortunately. I get so little time with him in the evening as I'm not home until 6 o'clock. By that time he's really tired so we have to read about Kipper & Floppy's latest escapades and he's too tired to have a go at anything I can find at home. I read to him every bedtime, but I would just like some more variety for him to read to me.

BabyGiraffes · 22/11/2011 23:19

Thanks to early posts in this thread I now have nightmares hearing Oh Floppy, no Floppy being read in a porn voice.... Grin
Well, it keeps me amused while my poor daughter refuses to read more than the names of the characters Wink

blushbabybambu · 22/11/2011 23:42

After lots of hints followed by direct question in my son's reading diary, I have given up all hope that his school reading books will bear any relation to his ability to read. Upshot was one frustrated 4 year old. I was even told he should get clues from the pictures (what? you mean guess what it says?)

So in it's place, I have devised simple word cards (starting cat, pig, dog etc) progresssing to short phonic sentences, then to blending consonants (ch, sh, wh etc), then to blending vowels (oo, oa ee etc). Then to little story books with my own rubbish illustrations that offer further practice).

Either it's not rocket science, or I'm a genius...

BabyGiraffes · 22/11/2011 23:49

I'm just cross that I will have to teach my dd to read. I was naive enough to think that this is what schools are for.... Confused

Yourefired · 23/11/2011 00:06

OP have not read all responses, so forgive if repeating. My DD1 was forced to read chip and biff and hated them, to the extent that she would make up stories about their tragic deaths rather than read the words. It caused huge problems, with the teacher cajoling me into forcing her to read them and then me doing so. In the end I refused to participate in the reading scheme as it was making her so unhappy and she was duly entered onto a enhanced literacy programme by the wise headmistress who supported my decision. We spent a term not reading any book: we went to the library and she chose books, we make cakes and read recipes and she was bought a magazine or newspaper of her choice every weekend. she was last assessed at end yr 5 as 5b for reading (this is good) and I have to scream at her every night to stop reading under the covers. She now loves books. Have taken same approach of child led reading with DD2 and it's working for us. She reads to me every night and me to her. Her teacher (different one and more experienced) agrees with me and also questions the wisdom of reading schemes for every child. Go with what works for your child and don't let anyone tell you differently. It was hard not fill in the reading record, and still is for second daughter but it worked for us. If you get offered chance to to els (enhanced literacy skills) grab it.

Mashabell · 23/11/2011 09:54

Gaelic
I was mostly agreeing with u in the post which got removed. It got removed because I was speculating about the motives of those who tend to be dismissive of everything I say.

But returning to topic, I think it's important for teachers and parents to understand what reading schemes try to do.

The ones with easily decodable words in which all letters have their main sound are for practising basic decoding and blending sounds into words.

After that, children must increasingly learn more and more of the words with alternative sounds for vowel graphemes and also a few consonant ones, such as s (sure, sugar).

The final aim of all teaching and learning to read is to be able to recognise all common words by sight, instantly, as all of us do now. Representatives from the 300 most HF ones which I pasted in on p5 make up half of all the words on any page we read. The ORT books therefore really push those.

The phonically straightforward ones (a, am, an, and....) children can mostly teach themselves to become really familiar with, by simply practising decoding and blending and getting faster and faster.

The trickier ones, the WRI ?red? words, need more going over before they become imprinted on children?s minds. Beyond a basic level, learning to read English is mainly about learning to read the tricky words.

Learning them in the context of exciting stories tends to be more fun than with reading schemes. And beyond the basic level, irrespective of what schools do, there is no harm whatsoever in parents letting their children read books other than the reading schemes ones.

Our son learned to read mainly with the Dr. Who books.

maizieD · 23/11/2011 18:13

The final aim of all teaching and learning to read is to be able to recognise all common words by sight, instantly, as all of us do now.

Well, actually, masha, it isn't.

The final aim of teaching and learning to read is to be able to independently work out what any one of the 250,000+ words in the English lexicon 'say'. Or at least, it is for all good teachers of reading.

mrz · 23/11/2011 18:21

Oh I missed it! please tell me what you think my motive is masha

Kewcumber · 23/11/2011 20:25

You are a covert agent of the sinister Synthetic Phonics Consortium who have embedded mind altering messages into Read Write Inc charts and plan to take over the world.

maizieD · 23/11/2011 20:59

OMG!

We were being so careful!

What gave us away?

Feenie · 23/11/2011 21:16

Grin Grin

changejustforyou · 23/11/2011 21:17

My experience with ORT as non-teacher:
Ds has just about learned to sound out words like cat, hat. Along comes Floppy et al with some long complicated word. Ds tries to sound it out. Fails at this stage. Tries to guess by looking at picture. Fails. Tries again. Fails. I say the word. Ds remembers. Next time ds reads whole book faultless! (oh did I mention I had covered up all the words whilest he read the book????....)

mrz · 24/11/2011 18:33

So the dark glasses and false moustache didn't fool her ... she's clearly barking !

gaelicsheep · 24/11/2011 21:49

changejustforyou - precisely. I am so tempted to withdraw DS from the reading scheme, but as it forms a large part of (the only?) class reading I don't see how I can. He doesn't mind them, they just aren't doing anything for him. And I do think they are putting him off reading (as opposed to being read to, which he loves).

Bobyan · 24/11/2011 23:17

Sorry if this is a dumb question, but how do the ORT levels correspond to the jolly phonics scheme? My ds (4) is on the school's (jolly phonics) blue level books but I can't figure out where this puts him on the ORT...

allchildrenreading · 25/11/2011 00:16

gaelicsheep - why don't you just read the biffandchip books to him (preferably at speed but with as much expression as you can muster ) and then choose a little book, within his decoding capacity, for him to read to you? Then go back to reading to him. He has to do the biffandchip at school - surely he can practise his new found decoding skills with something else at home. Perhaps try the little Ruth Miskin ditty books - they are lively, have some wit and are more reasonably priced than many.
She-who-thinks-everything-is-a-conspiracy
Beyond a basic level, learning to read English is mainly about learning to read the tricky words.
At last, an explanation for all those mindless lists - but will it take 100 years or a 1000 years to produce lists for the 200,000+ words you think of as tricky. The mind boggles.

Mashabell · 25/11/2011 08:18

My lists of the HF words are not mindless. They are the same as the 'red' words on the posters of the RWI phonics schemes. They are the words which all texts use over and over again, making up half of the words on any page. Learning to recognise them instantly early on is of great help with all reading.

There are also only around 2000 relaltively common English words with decoding problems (which can all be seen on the Sight Words page of my website) not 200,000+ . Pupils would not be expected to know all the 2000 tricky words by the end of primary school.

Being able to read just the 300 most commom tricky words without hesitation would already make a child a pretty fluent reader.

maizieD · 25/11/2011 09:58

There are also only around 2000 relaltively common English words with decoding problems (which can all be seen on the Sight Words page of my website) not 200,000+

I think that the problems are all in your head.

I don't know where you have dredged up the figure of 200,000 from or how it is relevant to your comment. In fact, what you are saying makes very little sense at all.

I think that your problem, masha, is that you have the very mistaken idea that learning to read involves learning every single word as a discrete 'whole'. This is such a hopelessly outdated and unscientific view of reading. No child needs to 'learn' every word, they just need to know how to decode and blend them. When decoding and blending is automatic it becomes an unconscious operation, carried out in millisecs by the brain without us really being aware of it.

Being able to read just the 300 most commom tricky words without hesitation would already make a child a pretty fluent reader.

But unfortunately they wouldn't have much chance of getting any meaning from what they were reading as the HFWs are mostly the 'functional' words, not the ones which carry the key meaning of the text. Really you are just chanting the ancient whole language mantras which were used to brainwash people into believing that you could teach reading without teaching any phonics. And your brain appears to have been very thoroughly washed...

maizieD · 25/11/2011 10:11

As a matter of interest: this is a piece of text with everything but the first 100 HFWs removed.

The ###
This ### with ### A Time, ### the ### ###, of ###
So, ### A Time, and ### if you can, a ### ### with , ### ### and ###, ### that ### to the ### of ### so that when you , you have to ### up , like ### water. ###* ### ###* along the * ###and ### * ### to ###as they ### * ###.
People are ### and they ###, * ###* ### and ### and ### * ####**.
This #### had been ####and ###, the ### ### and . ### ###to ###and would ###and ###into the ###, to what it was that they were to be ###By ### in the ###, the ### would be in a ### of ###, with ### ### ### and ### in the . It was , ###

There are 94 discrete removed words.A few of them may be in the next 200 HFWs

allchildrenreading · 25/11/2011 10:18

I don't want Masha to be blamed for anything she's not responsible for - she has enough problems to deal with.

It was me who dredged up the 200,000+ words. We have around 500,000 words in the English language, I understand, and around half of these would be encountered by an educated person during a lifetime - that was my thinking, anyway.

However, there are very, very few words which need to be taught as 'sight' words; even these few have some part of the word which is decodable. Those of us who have had to pick up the pieces of 6,7 year olds (and older) who have been bamboozled by a mixture of 'sight' word learning, high-frequency words taught as sight words,and who therefore have been unable to follow the logic of the alphabetic code, find these lists damaging in the extreme.

Thousands of children are damaged by the approach relentlessly pushed by Masha. Even when a very productive discussion is taking place, Masha will attempt to derail it by the insertion of these mindless lists. And they are mindless if you teach using a good synthetic phonics programme.

allchildrenreading · 25/11/2011 10:21

who therefore have been unable to follow the logic of the alphabetic code

sorry, it's the children who are unable to follow the logic - badly expressed -
could mumsnet add an editing facility!

MigratingCoconuts · 25/11/2011 14:55

mrz, I have no idea what you look like in RL but I now have an image of 'you' with a big comedy moustache on..... not sure how long it'll take to go away Grin.

Mashabell · 25/11/2011 15:26

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by Mumsnet.

gaelicsheep · 25/11/2011 16:20

maizieD - that is precisely DS's problem. When I'm reading to him he will excitedly say "the!", "of!", "and!". And that's great. But the 12 words in his "spelling" book for P1 do not a story make.

Thanks for the ideas allchildrenreading. I'll look out the books you mention :)

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