Parent helper 'kicked' or tapped ds with foot- wwyd?

[popgoestheweezel]

Yesterday I was helping out at school as a group from ds' class were on an outdoor learning trip to the neighboring woods. The grandad of one of ds' best friends was also helping.
I was assisting another child making a leaf picture but looked up when I heard a noise of someone being hit on the back (the kind of hollow sound you get). Ds started crying I went over to see him, thinking that he and his friend had just hit one another as they'd been squabbling over leaves but after a while (he was crying quite a lot) I worked out that he was saying that "S's grandad has just kicked me in the back!".
He kept saying it, in the end, quite clearly but the 'outdoor learning specialist' who was leading the group and the TA who was also with us carried on helping the other children and didn't interfere in the scene.
Of course, I didn't actually see what happened but I think ds was grabbing leaves out of his friend's pile and the grandad poked/tapped/kicked ds in the back (hard enough to make a sound, but not to leave a mark) to get him to stop it.
I was very taken aback by all this and not at all sure how to react. I comforted ds told him to apologise to his friend and left it at that.
Now, I'm worrying that I should have done more.

You get all sorts of sounds in woods.

You didn't see what happened. I think you did the right thing, including leaving it at that.

Is S the friend of your son?

Sounds like your son was doing something to S and his grandad stepped in.

Obviously 2 wrongs don't make a right, but I'm not sure what you can do at this stage without knowing if it really happened, how it really happened.

Might be worth mentioning it to the qualified people who were there,who should after all have been the ones with overall responsibility.

As I said before ds was grabbing leaves out of S's pile, so yes, bucharest, you are right.
It definitely was the sound of someone being hit on the back. Followed by an immediate cry. The other adults looked up too. Ds is very reliable, generally doesn't lie so I'm pretty confident.
Anyway, why would it ever occur to ds to claim that the g'dad had kicked him. If he was going to lie surely he'd make up a much more believable one that the friend had hit him?
I have to say I have been uncomfortable with this grandad's behaviour before. A few times when the grandson has been just ever so slightly unruly (ie typical 5 yr old) he has raised his hand to him in a threatening manner which I was very uncomfortable to see.
Ds said last night "S's grandad is always hurting him. He hits him and kicks him in the playground, I've seen him" (the grandad often drops off and picks up).

I am a teacher. I think it would be worth mentioning the situation and what your DS said about his friend being hit to the class teacher.

Well I think you should inform the school as its clear to me that he isn't a suitable person to help out on such things as trips,
You have your ds's account of what happened and although you didn't witness it you heard something and you witnessed your ds distress, which suggests that something did occur whether deliberate or accidental. Also your ds may have been naughty it doesn't excuse what happened.
Did anyone actually ask grandad what occurred to make your ds distressed? Did he apologise or say anything at all?

School should know about this so they can decide if he is suitable to help out on trip etc again, if he does he needs to be separated from his dgc.
When I did such things it was rare for a parent or gp to supervise their own dc plus others and the only exception was if they just looked after that one child.

Being from an older generation (I assume but he actually could be near my age) he may not think twice about physically disciplining another child.

I think you should also tell school what child said about gf hurting him as it may be an abusive situation. If he would "tap or kick or whatever" a child in front of witnesses what does he do in his own home.

I think you should definitely mention it in that case. Agree also with pudding and dontdoironing. He sounds horrible.

IDontdoironing, the point you make about what he might be capable of doing at home is a good one.
S has been to play at our house at least half a dozen times but ds has never had an invite back. I'm not aware that S has ever had anyone to play at his house. I've never really thought anything of this before as S's mum does work full time (hence the g'dad dropping and picking up) and his parents are divorced too so i guess there is less free time for S to have friends. But now it seems notable.
I've never really had a conversation with S's mum either. Obviously I don't see her very often but that seems strange too now.
I know that this g'dad is from a different generation but all the same, nowadays it is not acceptable to physically chastise your own child, certainly not someone else's child, and certainly not in the school environment.

I would definately mention it to avoid a similar incident should the grandad help out again on another trip.

I think if the action was loud enough to hear/warrant a cry then there would have been some kind of mark even a small red patch through a jacket.

Not suggesting your ds is fibbing,if it was his back then he may have not seen himself what actually happened- whilst I agree you need to speak to the teacher about the event and what your ds has said ,you also need to keep an air of reality about this.

The Gf was wrong but I feel you are feeling 'guilty' too(about being there/not seeing it/not taking action there and then etc)

Hope your ds is ok .

How do you know it wasn't S himself that whacked him on the back? And how does your DS know for that matter?

I sincerely doubt the grandad did anything and it is most likely a big misunderstanding.

However, in issues of child protection, you have an obligation to pass any information on to your line manager (class teacher) so that it becomes their responsibility to make a decision about it.

This is in the hugely unlikely event that it was the Grandad's fault and it does happen again (or worse).

I would definitely mention it to the teacher in charge of the trip, or the one at the school responsible for child protection. At our school we have guidelines that tell us we have to report anything that concerns us as parent volunteers, whether it be an incident of this nature or something they mention about their homelife, anything that rings an alarm bell with you that you hear or see while volunteering.

This is the kind of thing that my father did to my DS in primary school which has led to a sort of estrangement between us. I probably would mention it to the school and also to S's mother. My DS didn't tell me for ages as he was young and probably didn't want to worry me. Please try and do something so that this cannot continue. I do believe your DS.

Spiderpig, ds knows that it wasn't his friend because they were sitting side by side (all the childen were sitting in a circle so it couldn't have been anyone else) so if it had been him ds would have seen. The g'dad was standing right behind my ds, the sound of someone being hit on the back was unmistakable and ds doesn't lie in general. By the g'dad's body language I could tell he felt uncomfortable/guilty.
Nickschic, you are right, I do feel guilty myself about not doing more at the time.
Dandylioness, that is exactly what I should have said.

I asked a couple of friends last night, one is a GP (he's just been on a child safeguarding course last week so is really up to date) he said I must report it because small, seemingly insignificant incidents like this can occur in a range of settings. On their own they probably mean nothing, but if all professionals put the information together it can be significant and a child may be at risk.

Another friend who is a deputy head also said I must report it and that I need to go straight to the head as it is his responsibility.

If it hadn't been your son but another child, what would you have done. I expect you would have comforted the child, heard what they had to say, then reported it to the school staff that were with you at the time as it would be their responsibility to deal with it.

As it was your child, they all looked around, saw that you were with him and probably thought that was that. You need to let the school know the facts as you know them. You heard a sound, you looked round, a child (your son on this occasion) was crying, the child said an adult behind him had kicked him in the back.

Tell the school you are reporting now because, thinking about it, you think they should be aware of what happened.

The thing was that we were all close together and ds was shouting loudly that S's g'dad had kicked him. I'm sure that the other adults could hear but they didn't do anything. I don't know why.

I guess if it had been another child they wouldn't have been able to tell me later that they'd seen the g'dad hit the g'son many times before- that is what worries me the most.

I expect the staff just thought you were dealing with it. Teachers and senior management do keep a record of incidents like this which, although seem minor at the time, may add up. At the very least they should be made aware of the facts as you understand them. It's ok to say, you didn't see it but you have been told.

I work in a school and if a child told me that an adult helper had hit, kicked or in any way touched them inappropriately I would report it to the teacher on duty. That is the procedure. They won't see that you are making a fuss, or being precious about your son. They will see the incident for what it was.

You will feel happier because the responsibility will be taken from you and you will know that the school are aware of the potential problems with that particular adult.

Fairenuff, would you expect a volunteer parent helper to deal with an accusation of assault- which is technically what we are talking about here?
IMO when I am there I am not acting as a parent to my child (he's not always in my group anyway), I am there to assist the leader in managing the children and safeguarding them. I am not primarily responsible- the school is.
I have just spoken to my sister about this. She works in the management of a large school and was involved in the formulation of their child protection protocol and is absolutely outraged and says I am completely under-reacting.

When I say they thought you were dealing with it, I meant that because you went to the child, spoke to him, comforted him, they would assume that the matter was minor and the child was fine and no other action was needed. As you were also the child's parent, there was no need to inform anyone at the end of the day, or ask the child what happened.

Unless you tell someone, no one will be any the wiser will they? I agree that you are under-reacting.

I told quite a number of people that my mum had pushed me down the stairs when I young. What had actually happened was she had accidentally stepped on the towel I was wrapped in (she was walking behind me carrying my sister) and I'd fallen down the stairs. Of course I had my back to her so I'd just figured that she'd pushed me.

I think there is a good chance that something accidental happened such as the granddad accidentally banged into DS while trying to stop him and S squabbling and you son thought it was a deliberate attack. I would say the noise you heard was probably something to do with the incident but not your son being kicked. I agree with those who say if he'd kicked hard enough to make a noise there would probably have been a mark so don't think it's sinister.

I doubt that the granddad would have kicked your son with so many adults around including you so I think we can take it that your son is mistaken. I would say to your DS that you think it was an accident. The very nature of being knocked in the back would mean you couldn't see what actually happened. This kind of think could tarnish the reputation of a granddad who let's face it is prepared to help out at school events.

'thing' not 'think', sorry.