Yes another reading level question..

[ChocolateMama]

I had parents evening with my son's teacher this week, and I asked her at what level he was for his reading. She said he was a little below national average. He had just started year 1 and is on yellow (1C I think?). Do you think this is correct?

Yellow , 1c, for the start of Y1 is absolutely fine.

I can't think why she'd say that was behind where he should be.

Thanks for that IndigoBell. Wasn't sure whether he was behind or whether the school just says this so parents work harder on reading with the children?

He should be 2b by the end of year 2, and children are expected to make a whole level within two years, so he is a little below average. Average for the start of year 1 is 1b.

It's nothing to worry about, though. It's one sublevel, and it's very early on his his academic life.

That's not right, Jan010 - children don't make a whole level in 2 years. That's in KS2. In KS1 They need to make a level and a half.

An 'average' child would start on the NC at the beginning of Y1 - at a 1c.

The same average child would hopefully achieve a 1 by the end of Y1, and then a 2b by the end of Y2.

In your version, Reception children would need to be a 1b at the end of Reception and skip 1c totally, since they don't even work at an NC level yet. Some children in Y1 will still be working on EYFS in the Autumn term, and that's fine.

That should read 'The same average child would hopefully achieve a 1a by the end of Y1, and then a 2b by the end of Y2.'

And I'm not sure you should post to tell someone their ds is below average if you don't know what you're talking about, btw - it's not very fair!

In fairness to Jan, most children are working at level 1c by the end of reception. It is not measured in that way, but most children fit the 1c criteria.

Which is why they start Y1 on a 1c, ready to learn the NC. They do not 'start' on a 1b, which is what Jan said. That's alarmist and false. As is chucking in a 'he is a little below average' when he plainly isn't, and wildly throwing misinformation at parents.

What a horrible term 'a little below average'. The early years at school covers a huge range of abilities surely.

In my primary school, we expect children to progress by a whole level in 2 years. Seeing is there is no hard and fast rule for this, you don't really have the right to say I don't know what I'm talking about.

Either way, the OP's teacher might have said the child is 'slightly below average', which sounds harsh, but to be honest, most parents ask that question directly. Some even ask teachers to rate the children in the class.

Oakmaiden I'm afraid most children are not working at 1C at the end of reception most children are still working towards level 1 so to say a child at 1C is below average is incorrect.

data.gov.uk/dataset/early-years-foundation-stage-profile-results-england-2010

So, jan010 - how exactly would that work? By your school's logic:

Start of y1 - 1c
End of y2 - 2c

Finishing your average child below average at the end of y2 in your school

And also still not making the OP's son below average at this stage

The expectation in my area is 2 full levels in KS1 and KS2

Does the difference between 1c and 1b really matter that much? Children make progress at different rates. One might make lots of sublevels of progress at the beginning of year one and then stay at that level for half of the year until year 2. Another one might go more slow and steady rather than in bursts.
If the child is doing ok with learning to read then one sublevel off a so-called average is neither here nor there.

Start of year 1/ end of reception- 1b
End of year 2- 2b
End of year 4- 3b
End of year 6- 4b

The problem comes from converting the EY goals into NC levels- the jump from a p8 to a 1c is huge.

Maybe my school has different jumps that others. I know we're told our children must make 2 sub-level jumps each academic year, and 2 sub-levels ie 1 level in 2 years. That doesn't really make sense, and no-one wants to be the year group whose children only progress by 1 sublevel, but it has to go somewhere.

The problem comes from converting the EY goals into NC levels yes it's a huge problem because there is absolutely no correlation between the two even though ill informed LEAs keep trying to do it.

We expect to make a full level per year in KS1

You couldn't and shouldn't convert EY goals into NC levels - the two systems don't compare.

P8??? Neither Reception nor Y1 children should be assessed using p scales, it's inappropriate.

If you actually read the national curriculum document for assessing English, you will not find any of these sublevels. You will find descriptions of each actual level. These sublevels are purely invented and they are fairly meaningless.
Levels were originally designed to be used to report progress at the end of each keystage, not at the end of each half term.
Here are the attainment targets for reading. Look, no sublevels
curriculum.qcda.gov.uk/key-stages-1-and-2/subjects/english/attainmenttargets/index.aspx

the 1c/1b/1a thing can be useful for seeing how much progress has been made over a year and is encouraging for kids as they see that they are not still on the same level one as they started off with, they might interpret being on the same level as meaning they hadn't improved at all. But sublevels are really not something for parents to get their knickers in a twist about, as technically, they don't exist.

I had a year 4 child who was still 'officially' p8s, and I had to fight tooth and nail to get her assessed as SEN.

Shouldn't happen is not the same as doesn't happen.

A child with SEN can be assessed as p8 a non SEN and a child in reception should never be assessed as p8.

I said Reception and Year 1 children shouldn't b

KitandKat the DfE break it down into low secure and high in APP

I know they do. But that is a subjective judgement on the behalf of the teacher really. There is no actual cut off between a 1c and a 1b. It is easy to say if a child has only just started working at level 1 or if they are achieving everything on level 1 and getting ready to move on to level 2. That is a more meaningful comment than the artificially created sublevels.

The P scales were only designed for assessing pupils with Special Educational Needs. They were not designed for assessing Reception pupils.

actually using APP it isn't. It is based on the criteria the child fulfils

Not having taught in KS1 I can't really comment. But I have never seen a document, even an APP one, that has been produced by the DfE not by the school, that says which criteria go with each sublevel. Plenty of teachers have created documents like this, but that is because we have been forced into sublevelling everything that breathes.