How to compare schools in Scotland?

[RedWelly]

We are going to move house next year, also the year ds1 will start primary. We currently live in central scotland and don't want to move very far but not being from the area don't have a lot of local knowledge re schools and have realised there are no league tables here any more. After an hour online looking for comparative reports of any kind, they just don't seem to exist. I phoned the council who said "we're not really into all that". I said what about Higher (A level equivalent) results A-C by school, surely parents want to know that?

• No. People just go to their local school.

Well, our local school ain't that great and like a lot of parents we'd be prepare to move to a better one - if we could get the information. But I'm starting to get a distinct sense of a conspiracy of silence. What am I missing? Is there a way of comparing schools?

Redwelly might feel differently about the Scottish system when she is actualy living in it too. The way that she is viewing it from the outside doesnt seem that accurate to me.
I have seen comparative figures for the primary schools (and secondary schools) in my area. I send my children to the school that I think is the best. However there are a number of other schools nearby that I would have been happy to send my children to, if I lived in those catchment areas.

In Scotland I am guaranteed a place for my children at the catchment school. If I wanted to send my children to an out of catchment state school I would have a better than 80% chance of managing this. I think that for choice that compares very favourably with the english system.

You're not a very nice person are you, redwelly?

Why dont you take your xenophobia bck down south with you?

Wow at the way this thread is going. OP I think you should look at the performance tables linked and ask parents from these catchments what they think of the school. FWIW, Dunblane High gets a great name as do the east renfrewshire schools. There are cultural differences a lot of which do revolve around attitudes to education. If its any consolation I am considering a move to the english system and am shitting myself at the hotbed of manic competition that it seems to be- but then again that maybe a over-reaction based on a snapshot of MN threads.

I've never heard such a load of rubbish, you just send your kids to the local school.

I've never in my life heard anyone talking about league tables etc in Scotland.

Redwelly, I imagine the reason AP asked your nationality is because in general it is normally non-Scots who feel the need to undertake school comparisons and league table analysis. It is understandable that if you were brought up in the English system and are used to it, you'd be looking for something similar.
However, you may not realise how incomprehensible and nonsensical the English system appears to us north of the border. Schools being too full to accept local children, leading to family having to commute miles to school, and siblings going to separate schools - that simply doesn't happen in the Scottish system.
Most of us quite like it the way it is.

Thank you, FromGirders, that's exactly why I asked. It doesn't matter where you're from. You just seem very critical of the Scottish education system, and I wondered if that was because you were unfamiliar with it or because you'd come through it as a student.

I've not seen any prejudice or thinly veiled racism on this thread from anyone other than you, TBH.

Just as an aside, are you aware that education did not become compulsory in England until after 1870, whereas the principle of universal education was laid down in Scotland immediately after the Reformation in the 1560s?
Just saying ...
:)

Redwelly, it sounds like you are managing fine re finding out about which schools are the best and which are rubbish by using the same techniques we all do - asking around, looking at the type of people/behaviour of pupils who go there etc.

The bottom line is, most Scottish schools have a social mix because most catchments have some social mix. Live in a predominantly rich area, the local school will reflect that; live in a predominantly middle class are, the school will reflect that, live in a poorer area, the shcool will reflect that. But all schools will be a mixture, especially the secondaries, because they have bigger catchments.

"It turns parents and children, a whole generation, into passive, docile consumers, content with their lot and who do what they're told by those who're in charge. It reinforces that disease of narrow minded parochialism that I was warned about, the one deep-rooted for generations in the psyche of a lack of self-esteem, of inferiority, of hating those who go against the grain and who strive to improve their lot. "

You were warned about Scotland being like this? And you think we are all "narrow minded parochialism" with " lack of self esteem and of inferiority"? Nice!

a lack of self-esteem, of inferiority, of hating those who go against the grain and who strive to improve their lot

Actually, I'm rather proud of our (nearly) 500 year old universal education system. And in Scotland, education has always been a "way out" of a poor background. Even in Glasgow in the 50s at the height of the "No Mean City" school kids wearing uniform or carrying an instrument were not picked on - they were seen as striving to better themselves and so help their families.

Goodness OP, this is going well isn't it!

There is a publication in Edinburgh called the Schools Guide, does exactly what it says on the tin, shows % of pupils entered for standard/higher grades and the results, number of kids per class, % who go onto further education etc. it's a very useful guide if you want to compare your local schools against each other. There may well be one for the area you are interested in.

I'm English living in Glasgow and I am rather relieved to be out of the whole league tables comparison/ grammar school nightmare people on mumsnet seem to endure.

Our school is a real social mix - we have millionaire parents and people on benefits, it has a strong multicultural ethos and many languages spoken. it is just what I want for my kids and I doubt it would be possible in England.

As for the views about parochialism - yes it exists but it also existed in the part of south London where I grew up. If anything the strong social mix of DD's school acts against a parochial view of the world.
Abolish league tables in England, that would be a step forward...

League tables will not tell you which schools are good and which are bad. They will largely tell you which schools serve more middle-class catchments, as exam results tend to follow in line with parental education and expectations. You talk about "what are plain to see are bad schools" - but is it actually plain to see? Or is it that the school may be doing well for a catchment which has problems. Whereas another school might do well in its exam results, but actually nowhere near as good as its pupils are capable of, because the school "coasts", relying on what comes in to be good enough that they don't have to add much value to them.

League tables help parents choose nice middle-class areas to move to, or to send their child to. They don't make the schools better.

As I said earlier, there are web pages which will allow you to compare any school with the average - a quick look at the typical house prices in the area will show a clear correlation with school exam results. eg in my own county I can pick out the expensive area with the high-achieving school without even having to compare the figures.

League tables and the illusion of choice in the English system haven't been an improvement, so I think you have to be very careful what you wish for.

Gotta say still laughing at this bit 'It turns parents and children, a whole generation, into passive, docile consumers, content with their lot and who do what they're told by those who're in charge. It reinforces that disease of narrow minded parochialism that I was warned about, the one deep-rooted for generations in the psyche of a lack of self-esteem, of inferiority, of hating those who go against the grain and who strive to improve their lot'. How to make friends and influence people.

DD is 11 and going to high school in August 2012. Our primary used to have duel feeder to 2 high schools. The further away one is more popular but lots of dd's classmates have siblings at the school and all say they're unhappy with the school and are sending their children to our now "catchment" high.

We visited earlier in the month and were very pleased. Each department gave us handouts with lists with the exam results for 2011 Standard Grades and Highers and they were far up lists considering it's a deprived area school. The small classes and enthusiasm of the vibrant staff seems to be turning the school around. The other school faired badly and my neighbour who hasn't spoken to me for years told me not to consider the other school for my dd.

What speaks volumes about the local schools where I live is that there is a high %age of parents who were privately educated and who could privately educate their own children, choose NOT to, and send their children to the local primaries.

In Scottish primary schools, parents will know that their child is working within the Early, First or Second level, but there are no grades given within those. We are starting to use the language of Curriculum for Excellence by grading children Developing, Consolidating or Secure within those levels, but that would only be reported to parents once a year.

Being involved in less summative assessment leaves us free to concentrate on teaching, and using ongoing formative assessment to decide the next steps for each child.

There are no SATs in Scotland, and even under the previous national testing systems teachers were free to test a child when they felt the child was ready, not at some pre-ordained age/stage.

In sum, we have a system that is driven by what is best for the children, rather than being driven by someone's idea of measures of achievement or success, and league tables. Given that the norm is to attend the school in your catchment area, there's not the need for schools to be compared to each other, set against each other. It's the job of HMIE to compare schools against national standards and expectations, so their reports are the best source of information for parents.

I went to a Scottish high school back when league tables where published, my school was consistently in the top 5 for the country. However this was purely down to the mainly middle class intake and very little to do with the quality of teaching. A lot of the teaching I received was decent but pretty staid, and extra curricular activities were limited. It was a perfectly nice school, but it massively rested on its laurels because it was cruising at the top of the league tables.

Nowadays the results are pretty much the same, but from what I've heard what goes on day to day in the school is far more exciting and I am jealous of the opportunities the children are receiving that I never had. I also know that neighbouring schools are getting better results without the aid of league tables.

I'm not Scottish and work in an English primary school. I think the competitiveness and market-led ethos is exceptionally damaging for schools and children, and I am very glad that I work at a school that is socially mixed like the school I attended as a child. I am exceptionally grateful to have gone to my local school as it has made me a far better person growing up with people from lots of different backgrounds. I don't have children yet, but when I do I will seriously consider moving back to Scotland as I feel the ethos of the education system is far better, even though I don't think that it is superior in terms of what children achieve (I think it is equal).

Moving to Scotland is difficult as an English person can be difficult, and I know that my mum really struggled with some of the differences as you are. 20 year later and she has accepted and welcomed the differences, and is far happy with her life than if she had stayed in the south of England. There is no conspiracy, it's just different.

"I will seriously consider moving back to Scotland as I feel the ethos of the education system is far better, even though I don't think that it is superior in terms of what children achieve (I think it is equal)."

Nicely put, hockeyforjockeys

Myself and my friends/family must be the odd ones out living in Scotland.

I have a friend living in Knightswood who put a placing request in for Broomhill Primary (didn't get their child in). Two living in Yoker, who put placing requests in for schools in Bearsden and got their kids in. Another in Temple who requested a school beside her work in the Southside of Glasgow, again she got her child in to the requested school.

I know people who lived in Clydebank who moved to Bearsden once their child became school age. Same as friends who moved to Jordanhill when their eldest was a few months old.

I don't think people just meekly accept their local primary or secondary schools at all.

It's different in Glasgow and Edinburgh, but once you get further out it's entirely the norm to go to your local school. Nothing "meek" about it.

To be honest, even in England it's entirely the norm to go to the local school outside large towns and cities - distances between schools in rural areas make 'school choice' an illusion.

DS's first school was in a rural area. Everyone went to the village school - the nearest alternative school was 5 miles away, and was full with children from its own village. Same with the school 5.5 miles away in the other direction - served its own community, was full with children from that community. Obviously the normal English system of league tables and Ofsted reports existed, but it has no meaning when there is in a practical sense no choice (the nearest primary school not filled from its local community was 11 miles away in the nearest large town).

In the non-metropolitan areas of Scotland, the same thing must apply - that there is no practical meaning in school choice, simply because the distribution of population means that alternative schools are a long way away and likely to be very impractical for the vast majority of families. The Scottish system reflects this reality - the English system can seem ludicrous to those in rural areas for whom the local school is the only viable choice.

When I went to school we did just go to our 'local' school but were lucky and it is a good school.

Now choosing for our DS, we have moved somewhere that the local school is thought of as a 'good' school.

I've talked about this at length with my DMum, she is of the opinion that it doesn't matter where you go as long as you work hard & your parents encourage you.

I disagree, if a large proportion of the class come from families who have little education & don't really care about education it is going to make an impact on the classroom and if we can choose to send him somewhere better, we will.

Best advice is to check out any reports for schools you are considering, try to avoid any with predominantly 'rough' council estate catchment (sorry to say this and know that some don't have any choice). If I was living in the area I was brought up I would probably not be so harsh about that, but I'm not & have to make decisions on whats best for my child.

Have known people who were poorly paid but both parents worked all the hours they could to send their DD to private school rather than the local 'failing' school, they said she was in the middle academically & could easily do badly if not in a great academic situation. Don't know how she got on, lost touch, but had a lot of respect for their hopes and determination.

I live a long way from Glasgow or Edinburgh in a small town with a large rural hinterland and, while most children do attend their catchment school, a significant minority do not - some for social reasons as described by MrsVoltar - others for a number of reasons that I alluded to upthread. People use local knowledge and their own family circumstances to make these choices. They certainly manage to do it without primary school league tables.

I doubt if LAs don't want parents to make a choice. The costs of administering placement request must be far less than operating an extensive and expensive clearing system and employing investigators to ensure parents are not trying to fraudulently obtain a place in an oversubscribed school.

And with regard to secondary schools, percentages of standard grade passes at various levels as well as higher results are certainly in the public domain. It only takes a small effort to find them but they are certainly not being hidden.

Very interesting thread - I can see many sides to this discussion.
I am with you tricky - I am Glasgow based and would agree that it is as competitive here as it is in England. Without exception everyone I know has paid and gone private, except for the socialists that buy a massive house in jordanhill/bearsden/east ren so they can use the 'local' school! Placement requests to Hillhead primary are the norm as well. Most of the private schools are full to bursting.
Agree cecily - You only need to look on parentzone to look at the league tables in Scotland / % free school meals etc and it is well used in Glasgow.
OP - you made some valid points, I have no idea how schools in Scotland will improve - true there are no sink schools but v few outstanding schools. Scotland is the only country that I have applied for jobs in and NOT been asked to teach a lesson. I think that speaks volumes. In OZ, NZ and dare I mention England it is the most important part of the interview process. Not saying england has the right system, far from it!