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Primary education

Join our Primary Education forum to discuss starting school and helping your child get the most out of it.

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Original poster

What reason could a school have...

21 replies

CardyMow · 06/09/2011 00:24

For not getting a 7yo, entering Y3, who has been on Sa since reception, and SA+ since Y1, who has been excluded (officially) 5 times, has now had a diagnosis of ADHD, and is waiting for an ADOS assessment for Aspergers/asd, seen by the EP? WHY would they NOT do that, even when they have put in a statement application - which was refused partly BECAUSE the child hasn't seen the EP?

OP posts:

Original poster

CardyMow · 06/09/2011 00:25

Oh - Child was working on 'P' scales for most things at the end of Y2. And has only been 'allowed' to attend school for 2 hrs a day for the last 3 months...

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MollieO · 06/09/2011 00:31

Can't you get a referral via your GP/CDC? Sounds as if the school aren't interested in funding an EP referral for whatever reason.

Original poster

CardyMow · 06/09/2011 00:35

GP and CDC have no authority in my county to refer to EP. Nor do the LEA. Only the SCHOOL has the authority to ask the EP to see the child when the EP is on a visit to the school. Why wouldn't the school do so?

I guess what I'm really asking is if the school gets allocated a set amount of EP hours or something, and if they are prioritising other children - maybe those who already HAVE statements? Above this child? Not my child, my friends' dc.

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Bingbangbong · 06/09/2011 00:36

Is it a waiting list issue? Am a governor and have a vague memory of being told that it takes an age to see an EP, but could be wrong.

MollieO · 06/09/2011 00:38

In my county (according to the paediatric consultant at the CDC) the school/LEA has a budget which they control but to which the CDC can refer and request access to an EP. Ds's issues weren't deemed to be serious enough for a referral. Could you pay for a private referral -£450/£500?

MollieO · 06/09/2011 00:40

I was quoted up to 2 yrs via NHS. Would have taken about 6 weeks if we had gone private. Didn't in the end as his teacher said she would stake her professional reputation on ds not needing to see an EP.

Original poster

CardyMow · 06/09/2011 00:40

But he's been at the school, and having issues for 3 years now. How long a waiting list can there be. I had similar problems at the same school with my DD, it took them 5 years to get her seen by the EP, even though, in the previous area we were in, she was seeing the EP every 6 months...School is notoriously bad for SN. I am trying to help my friend, but am hitting a brick wall, as she cannot afford a private EP, LEA are refusing to assess for statement without EP input, School won't get EP assessment done...

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piprabbit · 06/09/2011 00:41

Could you contact Ofsted? I don't think that they will investigate a complaint that relates to only one child - but their website does say that they can offer advise on what other organisations may be able to help and support you.

Original poster

CardyMow · 06/09/2011 00:41

Seems to be a vicious circle that those with no funds (me and my friend included) cannot break.

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Original poster

CardyMow · 06/09/2011 00:45

Ofsted are as much use as a chocolate teapot with this issue - I tried them personally when I was trying to get the EP to see my own DD. Which only happened in Y6 (we moved here when DD was in Y2) because the Secondary DD was transferring to insisted. I had been every route known to MAN up to that point - including LGO, Sec of State, Ofsted, Local MP, Ipsea (not that I ever got through on the bloody phone to them - my credit would always run out before they answered the phone, we both only have PayG mobiles, no landlines), and SoS SEN.

So if I couldn't solve this issue with my own DD, how do I help my friend with it? I was just wondering if it was something to do with the way Essex LEA devolves its' SEN budget to the schools?

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piprabbit · 06/09/2011 00:58

Must admit I've heard very few positive stories from the parents I know in Essex about getting the SEN support their children need. .

Sorry I don't have any better ideas.

Original poster

CardyMow · 06/09/2011 01:08

Essex (especially North Essex) a a black hole for getting a decent education for dc with SEN that aren't severe enough for one of the 60 places a year available in the SEN schools in N.Essex. .

But some of us are still fighting...

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IndigoBell · 06/09/2011 02:22

Normally schools have a fixed number of EP hours a year, and the school gets to choose which child sees the EP.

There normally isn't a waiting list as such, in that the school and the EP would decide every term who the EP is going to see.

So, why on earth that child, who has been excluded so many times, is not top of the list I have no idea.

Normally schools prioritise kids with behaviour problems.

It's not legal for school to say kid can only attend 2 hours a day. Absolutely not legal - unless the parent agrees.

The parent needs to refuse to pick up kid, and send him there full time. Which will cause school more problems. Hopefully enough problems that they get him to see the EP.

Or, the school will have to send him home on a half day exclusion ery day. Then very quickly the child will have been excluded so much he'll be eligible for permanent exclusion. Then this will force the LEA to find him another school......

I can't remember all the law around exclusions, but once he's had so many exclusions she can also get the governors involved.

Has she formally complained to the governors about her DC not being seen by the EP? Or formally complained to the governors about the HT?

Even if the govs don't do anything she should still make a formal complaint.

mummytime · 06/09/2011 07:22

Have you tried the SEN boards here?
Have you contacted either SENSOS! or IPSEA?

mrz · 06/09/2011 07:45

I have 12 hours EP time this year. It take 5-6 hours to complete an assessment on a single child = prioritising 2 children to be seen I hate it!

admission · 06/09/2011 11:00

Sorry but can't help that much on SEN, there are far more knowledgable people on the SEN board.
However there is no way that your child should only be allowed in school for 2 hours a day. The school and you are in effect breaking the law as they have to be in school fulltime. I would love to see what the school is putting on the school register for all the time that your son is not in school.
In effect whilst you are looking after your son for the majority of the day, there is no impetus for the school to actually address your sons issues. If he was at schol fulltime, yes there will probably be more problems but the school may then think that it is in their interest to do something, like get the EP involved and get a statement.
The downside of that suggestion is that having been temporarly excluded 5 times the potential for the school to permanently exclude after an incident must be increased significantly. But actually is that going to be such a bad thing, as it must then bring to a head the need for your son's SEN to be addresssed.

IndigoBell · 06/09/2011 11:26

I think in this case (from reading your other threads) getting the child permanently excluded will be the best thing for him.

Because you say you can't move school and this school is absolutely terrible.

If he's permanently excluded the LEA will have to provide him with a different school (possibly, though not necessarily, a PRU) - and they will have to provide transport to it for him.

Wouldn't that be a good result in this case?

So your friend needs to send him to school full time, and not pick him up. If school ring and ask her to pick him up she needs to refuse. If school insists then she needs for it to be marked down as a formal half day exclusion.

They can't have more than 5 days exclusions without things escalating to the govs.

Original poster

CardyMow · 06/09/2011 13:25

She doesn't want him at a PRU though. SEN school maybe, but not the PRU. They gave her a letter this morning, claiming that he will attend FT from the 16th - however, she has had letter like this 6 times in the 3 months before the end of last school yr too. The school are putting it down as authorised absences.

mrz - 12 hours for the entire year?? How many pupils are there at your school? Is the amount of hours dependant on how many pupils, or just X amount of hours per school? If that's the case, then I can assume that because there are two dc in the year below with SEVERE SEN (gastro tube, walker for CP, LD's and other probs), that those two dc are getting ALL the EP time. How can that be rectified, and how in your school, would a parent in this situation get THEIR child to see the EP, if all the EP hours are taken up by two other dc?

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beautifulgirls · 06/09/2011 14:28

Has she appealed to tribunal for the refusal to assess? If she does and wins then the EP will almost certainly have to see him as a part of the assessment process then and the LEA shouldn't be able to ignore that.

If she is out of time to apply for tribunal (2 months from the time the LEA decline to assess) then reappy for statutory assessment and wait for the refusal again, then she can appeal.

Sounds to me like a lot of people involved are taking advantage of her lack of knowledge of the system. IPSEA/SOS SEN are very helpful so definately get in touch.

SE13Mummy · 06/09/2011 20:33

Has your friend got the name of the EP allocated to the school? I think I'd be inclined to write direct to the EP, with a brief outline of dates etc. of exclusions, assessments etc. and ask the EP when s/he will be in school to assess her child. It's likely that the only reply she will receive will be along the lines of 'EP assessments are arranged by the school, please speak to SENCo' but at least he's then on the EP's radar as an ongoing concern.

When I was SENCo (in a 2-form-entry school, massive proportion of children with SEN, highly mobile school population with 80% on FSM and a similar percentage with EAL), I was able to arrange for the EP to see every single child I wanted him to... there were loads. I was also able to use EP time to review children's files/do snapshot observations of children I thought might need to be assessed fully but wanted advice ASAP. I was incredibly fortunate though.

Why does your friend not want her son to attend a PRU? Some primary PRUs are amazingly therapeutic places and it may be a way of her son being assessed by an EP.... perhaps talking to the Head at the proposed PRU might be a way forward, if only to have a look around and pick his/her brains about how to get her son assessed.

Original poster

CardyMow · 06/09/2011 21:20

We are in the process of compiling an appeal - has to be there by 22nd October. No name for EP, this year group is a 3-form entry (has a bulge class, school normally 2-form entry), The only PRU locally takes 7-16yo. She wouldn't mind quite so much if it was just a primary PRU, but it's 7-16, and she's not happy with that. We BOTH think that 1-2-1 support in MS or SEN school would be the appropriate placement for her ds. Maybe your school got extra EP time due to % SEN? Our school officially has 30% FSM, 0.5% EAL, 6% SEN (SA+ and statements). The low % SEN is because everyone that CAN pull out SN dc HAS done.

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