NLCS - HABS - ST HELENS - Other Schools in North West London

[maya1234]

I know there are other threads on here about preparation people are doing for assesments at 4+ entry into these schools.

I get that it is really competitive and I get that the kids don't have to read.

I know there are those of you who dont agree with private education etc, fine, I am not doing this post to discuss the merits of it versus state, so if this is what you want to do please start your own thread.

What I want to discuss is what is good preparation, not whether it is right or not, these assesments are there to assess a childs readiness to learn and that cant be taught.

Most people I know that are going for these assesments for 4+ entry are ALL getting their kids tutored, pretty much most the kids getting into these schools are either privately tutored or tutored by their parents.

It is certainly not a level playing field when trying to get your child into a good school, what I want to know is how can I prepare my child as best as I can.

My child is shy, she doesnt look people in the eye, she clams up in new situations, she has had no tution, we have not bombarded her with preparation by any means, but need to start doing something especially since most her peers who will be at those assesments will have been tutored or prepared.

I want genuine advice from parents who are experienced in preparing their children for these assesments, most parents I know whose children are in the same year are either tutoring openly, or secretly, I am not here to judge on whether it is right.....I would like to know whether it is what is neccessary...

Maya - the tutoring culture is terrible TBH. I know it's hard, but honestly, you will get an offer from a school that will make your DD HAPPY, and when you see her happily settled, you'll forget everything that happened getting there!

Did your DD get 2nd round at St Helen's? It's a great school, I went there and now have DD1 & 2 there and they are sooooo happy. Neither was tutored (DD1 entered Yr 4 in Oct 2010 and DD2 entered Reception this Sept just gone), we were living abroad beforehand. Took DD3 for the 3+ assessment at beginning of the month, she was not prepared in any way and is v timid so we'll see what happens with her.

Let us know how you get on...

Ask for feedback. I don't have much experience but the feedback I have heard for rejection was very valid ( and made her mum feel better about being rejected).
They would see through a quiet child, so there must be more to it. But a child who can't thrive in that environment will suffer, which I have seen, and that's no fair.

I was tutored by my mum ( not a specialist) but that was 20 years ago....

I would totally agree that shy children at 4+ may excel at 7+ or 11+ having been in the right nurturing primary school to build up their confidence. The early years are so vital to building up a child's self-esteem and the papers for those schools do have a way of spotting natural academic ability which should shine through at any point in primary if your DD is reading confidently already. If I had a DD I wouldn't put her in to that environment at 4 unless she was naturally competitive, gregarious and more than a little over confident. The headmistress when I was there was fond of saying Habs was not a school for shrinking violets and the her girls were confident and capable - and the current head was a deputy head under that head (and I do not have fond memories of her pastoral 'care') so is in a similar mould.

Focus on finding a lovely nurturing primary and building up her social skills and self-esteem so she can wow then at 11+.

I have been reading nutureshock and it suggests that it can be destructive to label kindergarten/ four year olds as gifted.

Children do better when they are praised for hardwork rather than being clever. A child who is praised for hard work has more belief in their ablity to control their destiny. A child who has always been told that they are clever may give up at the first sign of something being hard.

However feel free to ignore my post as my dd will never to go habs or any other private school due to cost.

i take it all back about nlcs
appears their selection process really is a bit random
i wont say how i know this....

i will look into nutureshock sounds interesting......

Honestly I think you are taking this way too personally. Making disparaging comments about a (reputable and apparently excellent) school like NLCS sounds like sour grapes. I know children in two of the schools you dismiss as 'nurturing' and they are great schools! One in particular is very hard to get into.

Relax - she will get into a great school that she will love, and if not, there's always the 5, 7 or 12+. If she's as bright as you say, she'll do great anywhere.

Must disagree about the 'randomness' at NLCS. In my DD's 4+ assessment group, I guessed who would be there in September. It was the girls who were wandering around the room and talking to eachother or chosing books to look at and not pinned to their parents. It was the ones who were chatting away the moment the teachers arrived and the ones who came out of the assessment and had clearly had a lovely time.
That is what it looks like to be ready at 4+.
Having said that, at 7, there were girls who came who had not been ready at 4. And at 11, there were girls who arrived who hadn't been ready at 4 or 7.
I've helped at too many assessment sessions to count as a parent volunteer and it really, really isn't random.

With all due respect Horsemad, and I thank you for your sympathetic responses to me, but what you have said is utter hogwash.

If beaming children who werent clingy, conversational and intelligent were all let in there simply would not be enough places at NLCS.

It is a lottery to some degree as there is no doubt children who meet that criteria are still turned away, and I have heard this directly from the horses mouth.

Its difficult to assess children who are 3 years old full stop.

There will be kids who are not suitable getting in and kids who are suitable not getting in.

So come on Maya1234, dish the dirt.. What did you hear about the NLCS selection procedure? Cheer up those of us who didn't make the 2nd round.

While I'm here - I have a good friend with a daughter in the 2nd round at NLCS. Does anyone know what it entails?

The book "nurtureshock" makes it clear that assessing American four year olds for gifted programmes is ineffectual. The progress IN THE US is damaging. Children who get into these US schools often underperform because they give up at the first hurdle. I have no idea if this is true for similar schools in the UK. I imagine that child pychology is the same the world over.

I find it weird that its regarded as a bad thing to be pinned to your parents at the age four. We tell our children not to talk to strangers yet expect them to be confident and outgoing in a nursery situation.

In a world with paedophiles, it is wise little girl who stays close to her carers.

Well said, reallytired.

I fail to understand the hype surrounding habs and NLCS. Admittedly, they are both outstanding schools in the academic sense (although if you only select the brightest kids, there would have to be something very wrong with the school if they didn't hit the top of the exam league tables every year!)

And I agree Maya that there is an element of luck involved with getting into either of these schools but so what? You pay your money and take your chance. I also think that horsemad is right and that on the whole it's the chatty, confident girls that are ready for the pace of these schools at four.

NW London is bursting at the seams with very good schools in both the private and the state sectors so if you don't get into either habs or NLCS, pick another one. Any child who can't look people in the eye was never going to fare well at either assessment regardless of any level of tutoring done. And anyone who thinks it's ok to tutor kids at four is doing nothing more than setting their child up to fail once they get in anyway. Would you tutor all the way through just so that you can tell yourself that your child goes to one of the best schools in the country.

Always, always, always pick the school that suits your child, not the school that suits your ego.

Just saying ....

i cant dish the dirt totally people will guess who I am and I am connected with the school already
but lets put it this way
there is a massive element of luck for the selection of the 1st round of candidates
"its a bit of a lottery" - thats a quote, but I won't say who from

think about it - they have 600 candidates, and no really accurate proven method of measuring intelligence in 1 hour.

you can sit there and see them as this great school who knows what they are doing
but they dont
and Im not just saying that cos my kid didnt make it
NLCS in particular is who told me it was a lottery......and judging by those who made second round that i know of.....it really did seem like a lottery
but look at what they say
if your kid is bright and social, can cut and can do a variety of things, they will be called back - "we are interested in what they can do as opposed to what they can't do"
Hogwash - all of it, most the kids there were bright and social, could cut and do a variety of things but only some got called back
They didnt test aptitude for reading, or intelligence, emotional intelligence, life experience...none of it.
This is turning into a rant - and I dont want it to be one

-Just remember they are only a school, with very mediocre (not very intelligent people in my opinion) assessing what makes children brilliant enough to go there - very mediocre people if you ask me because they dont even care that the system is a bit of a lottery...

i cant dish the dirt totally people will guess who I am and I am connected with the school already
but lets put it this way
there is a massive element of luck for the selection of the 1st round of candidates
"its a bit of a lottery" - thats a quote, but I won't say who from

think about it - they have 600 candidates, and no really accurate proven method of measuring intelligence in 1 hour.

you can sit there and see them as this great school who knows what they are doing
but they dont
and Im not just saying that cos my kid didnt make it
NLCS in particular is who told me it was a lottery......and judging by those who made second round that i know of.....it really did seem like a lottery
but look at what they say
if your kid is bright and social, can cut and can do a variety of things, they will be called back - "we are interested in what they can do as opposed to what they can't do"
Hogwash - all of it, most the kids there were bright and social, could cut and do a variety of things but only some got called back
They didnt test aptitude for reading, or intelligence, emotional intelligence, life experience...none of it.
This is turning into a rant - and I dont want it to be one

-Just remember they are only a school, with very mediocre (not very intelligent people in my opinion) assessing what makes children brilliant enough to go there - very mediocre people if you ask me because they dont even care that the system is a bit of a lottery...

second round will consist of all the children being given numbers between 1 and 49

the head teacher will then get a set of balls between 1 and 49 and put them in a balls mixing machine, there will then be 6 teachers who will come to the machine to draw out a ball and announce the number.

There are 40 places so the 40 children who get the highest number of balls right will get in, others will be told they are not good enough.

maya1234, primary school hardly matters. Nurturing of talent is bit of hype at this stage. Or so I would believe.

The only results that starts affecting your career are A Levels, long way before your daughter reaches that stage. Chill.

Do they interview the parents? I imagine that when there are so many children, it must be tempting to reject the very bright child who has a truely awful mother. Do the schools check the parents' credit rating and proof of employment. I might be the parents who are assessed and rejected rather than the child. If my daughter got in to these schools we would have to rob a bank! I am sure I would fail any test for social skills or grace.

As I said, my children aren't part of the world of the 4+. Life is a lottery, it is an accident of birth that dd won't go to habs. DD has all the attributes that would give her good chance. She is really good at drawing and can use sissors at 2 yeasr old. Is being rejected at an assessment any less unfair than the fact that my dd who will never go there in a million years?

If habs / ncls are anything like the private girls school I went to I think its a very wise 3 year old who clings to mummy. Girls schools are horrid places! I prefer co ed.

reallytired - I would imagine you're right and the parents are vetted for (a) whether they can and will probably continue to be good for the fees and (b) whether they will cause too much disruption if their child is admitted.

I feel your pain having been there myself last year. We didnt tutor and I was working so wasnt able to help. We didnt get through anywhere not NLCS Habs nor st helens.

This yr we did things differently - we took the dark path and had DD tutored. were thorugh to round 2 at habs 5+ this yr and I tell you, we couldnt have done it without external help. If it is these schools that you want you have to (sadly) follow the masses.

I now whole heartly believe that there are only two ways through this - you get a tutor or do the work yourself. Anyone that says they didnt do any work with their child is lying!!

you dont send your 2 yr old without preping them for nursery - you talk to them get them mental ready for what lays ahead. Why is that different at 4 or 5? This tutor "played" with the girls just as they would do at nursery but more structured.

My DD is up set that were not going to see this lady anymore.

Don't let other people dediate what you believe is right for your children.

I think 5+ is very different to 4+ as they are able to test more on the "academics" (used loosely" reading, storytelling etc. 4+ As much as the children have to be bright, they have to be seen to be ready emotionally. Unfortunately you can't tutor personality/confidence, and whilst I'm sure they do take a range of personalities even shy, they just can't be the type of child that need constant support/prompting for the assessment session. Mrs Newman (NLCS) says they could fill 60-80 places they just don't have them to offer. Also many of the top girls in the seniors did not feed through from the juniors and word of street is many year 5/6 are being tutored to be able to keep up at 11+. A lot to be said for good prep's, definately not to be dismissed. Finally having worked for several years in graduate recruitment I can honestly say I never even looked at the primary education.

Good luck 2stressed hope you daughter gets in.

But this isnt just about primary school patienceneeded these schools go up to 18 and the girls move straight to university. Its aout the whole system cause once your in your there (most the time) for "life" - who wants to go through this aggro again!

Of course all other variables remain constant - girls are happy doing well, enjoying school life in genereal...if not of course you reconsider.

I am totally with you 2stressed and understand your reason's for taking the route you have, and lets hope it pays off. What i'm saying is it's not just the tutoring, the children have to be ready/"fit the mould" for the environment in other areas (personal/social etc). I know several tutored children who did not get past the first round of either habs/nlcs this year and several that weren't have been called back. Also due to lack of places some will unfortunately have to go through the dreaded 11+ but for the highly academic children this is their chance to shine.

It sounds in Maya1234 daughter's case that she may benefit more from a year in drama/social activities than she would being tutored as it seems obvious it's not the academics that are being questioned (Maya1234 did you phone Habs for feedback they will apparently give you a little)

My main point is that this area has so many great schools, especially the other school's already mentioned. St Helen's and Manor Lodge in my opinion are both wonderful school's.

With the prep school's you also have the added benefit of wanting the same outcome as the parents which is ultimately to get their children into the top schools. So definitely no slacking on the academics, whilst i'm told ML for one also offer excellent pastoral care. Also Maya1234 some parents wouldn't dream of sending their kids to NLCS/Habs at 4+ so these other schools will have many very academic children where your daughter will no doubt flourish. So try to look at like fate, everything happens for a reason.

Pat'need- sorry not convinced!

Maya1234 if you want the tutors number pm. She worked wonders for us.

Maya - my daughters attend NLCS and I asked the teachers how can they pick out what they are looking for at 4....they know which kids are being tutored and that is taken into account in the assessment. Often they are looking more for the confident types than a shy, but highly gifted child.

Each to their own but we wouldn't dream of tutoring our children at 4. At 7 I think that it is perfectly acceptable to tutor the children on how to complete an exam paper in a set peiod of time.

Your daughter's happiness is far more important than the school she attends...

Maya1234,

I can relate to your concerns, it seems to me that you have a very gifted child and you are most worried that unless you get her into Habs NLC etc, you feel that her potential will not get harnessed. Or, worse she will become bored, frustrated at another school/class where she is leagues ahead of her classmates.

It is important that her future teachers recognise her abilities, and offer her appropriate challenge. Also, it is just as important that she does not skim over the tasks at hand like perfectiing her current skills, developing her imagination and art etc. There are other private schools in the area that have bright children such as your own, who for whatever reason did not get in or did not apply to NLC Habs, etc. The most important thing is to support her learning yourself and make sure that her future teachers recognise her abilities and support her with differeniated learning. All is not lost. There are highly successfull individuals out there who went to the local comprehensive and still gained Phds and sucessfull careers. Generaly they had people that championed them and inspired them, teachers, parents, kindly Aunt. Have faith in her and yourself, her education is only just beginning!

LostinSuburbia

"There are highly successfull individuals out there who went to the local comprehensive and still gained Phds and sucessfull careers. Generaly they had people that championed them and inspired them, teachers, parents, kindly Aunt. Have faith in her and yourself, her education is only just beginning!"

Agree. For various reasons, my siblings and I have wholly different 'school' backgrounds (ranging from local 'just finished being a secondary modern' comprehensive, from which my sibling got 8 of the total of 24 O-level passes that year, to selective academic private schoool). All of us went to Oxbridge, all of us have high-class science degrees, all of us have further qualifications on top of our first decgree. The commom factor is NOT that we went to the best schools - because some of us definitely didn't. It is that we have the same parents, and the same grandparents, who valued us and valued education and pushed us always to do our best.

It may seem like the end of the world now that your tiny daughter has not got into the school you set your heart on. I'm sure that my parents felt the same on the day my sibling entered their supposedly 'sink' comprehensive. In the long term it will be you, not the tiny difference between one private girls' school and another, that makes the most difference to what your daughter achieves.