Outstanding schools

[SpareRoomSleeper]

There are the obvious differences between schools rated as "good" or "outstanding", but I was wondering whether there is a difference within outstanding schools due to the area that they are in?

Are schools judged according to a national or local standard, so that if a school is very good within a deprived area, it is judged to be outstanding, but if you were to take the same school out of that area and place it in a more affluent postcode, it wouldnt rate as highly?

Dd's former headteacher was desperate to get his school rated outstanding. Unfortunately, the attendance record was in his way: the school contained several children with chronic health problems who pulled the statistics down. He tried to solve the problem by harassing their parents, hoping that they would get sick of it and pull their children out. He refused a wheelchair-bound child access to the disabled toilet because he wanted to keep it nice for visitors (presumably of the Ofsted variety).

There were many good features about the school- firm bullying policy, good discipline, excellent music- but parents felt intimidated and even teachers were afraid to raise problems with the head (note: if a teacher says to you "could you speak to the head about this because I don't really like to" it is a bad, bad sign).

Dd's present school doesn't manage Outstanding either but Ofsted are full in praise of its pastoral record and parental satisfaction is very high. And there is such a warmth about the place.

Our school is pulled down by its attendance record, rather a lot of parents like to take holidays in term time, and the school gets rapped on the knuckles for it. This seems a bit unfair to me, not the school's fault that people round here are a bit keen on holidays.

An outstanding school's outstandingly good at getting outstanding Ofsted reports.

There are a few I know of where I wouldn't want to work or be a child (such, such unhappy places) - there are a fair few satisfactory/good ones I'd jump to get into, and even one with notice to improve that I know why it's in that and I've got utter faith in the head to turn it around (Ofsted arrived the week after she'd taken up post and she'd inherited paperwork failings from the previous head who, shall we say, had got into retirement wind-down a bit too early) - got utter faith in the current head who I've worked for before - give it a year and it'll be a fantastic school cos she's fab.

To be honest my real test of confidence in a school is if the teaching staff will send their kids there - I think that says more about the confidence of people who see how a school's run from the inside view than any Ofsted report tbh.

My children have over the years [due to moving about a bit] attended several schools. IME the ones that looked worse 'on paper' were/are the best.

IME I found the 'better' on paper schools to be less than supportive on SEN issues to the point where they would rather your child left the school than help and support their needs.

There is so much more to a good school than their ofsted grade.

Ah, it's almost amusing to see the defensive allegations from teachers who cannot provide any supporting evidence. Sadly mrz you've sucumbed to fall abusive personalization. But where is your evidence? You seem happy to ride a high horse that's paid for by little people like us, and criticize attempts at accountability.

The political will behind SATs has not changed, i.e. a test of competence of teaching, albeit watered down. Yes Science was dropped, those in the know just laughed at the drilling in year 6 being even more 'focussed' than before. Better to add humanities rather than drop science in what is clearly a diluted test of competence of teaching in schools. If you look objectively at the link in the Guardian, hardly a Tory-inclined paper, you will see a little of how primary teaching covered itself in muck in the potted history of SATs.

Parents, when your child leaves primary, ask yourself how weak they are in the non-SATs subjects. Prepare to be shocked. If there is no test of competence, the goods are not consistently delivered. Your DCs will tell you this within a year of secondary school, even if they were in 'outstanding' schools.

Parents in the know, who have a much better view of what comes out at the other end of primary school, use SATs just as we use the 'sell-by date' on food. It is about hygiene, and not whether it's the best food for nutrition or taste. It's about a basic level of product, and avoiding poisoning. That's what SATs are. There are reasons why some would choose food just by its sell-by date, but better education brings a more demanding consumer. Being one of the little people, I'm just sharing what I've been told by 'expert buyers' of education.

Getting market feedback is what makes services stronger. Being defensive and abusive merely makes us realize you think the world owes you a living. Thankfully since massively expensive state education is funded by little people like us, every Government sees fit to regulate teaching performance, even if the side-effects are red-faced wriggling about SATs marking. When the rest of this country is struggling with costs, some think nothing of incurring costs in reviewing their SATs results.

sorry to gatecrash - ELIBEAN - come and say hi on your Postnatal thread :)

Not defensive rosar I'm afraid it's a natural instinct to attempt to educate the uninformed.

Sadly rosar in addition to being grossly misinformed you have a closed mind ...
the schools resorting to drilling for tests were those that are desperate to attract those parents who value Ofsted reports and believe "outstanding" schools are obviously different from "good" schools and will bankrupt themselves to move next door. Parents I imagine very like you.

Schools that incur costs to have a child's work marked correctly do so in order that the child's effort is fairly rewarded, because although it may not matter to you or I, it does matter to an eleven year old child who has worked hard for seven years to have their effort recognised.

National Curriculum testing is there to assess what a child knows at the end of each Key Stage in order that the school can plan to ensure appropriate teaching and learning is provided.

mrz your desperation even extends to imagining I would "bankrupt myself to moving next door". Clearly you really think that the only alternative to the world owing you a living is being bankrupt. You really are a shining example of why it would be foolish for parents to rely on opinions of teachers like you.

A child's reward for seven years' effort has nothing to do with the SATs results. Neither the child nor parent cares about the result, they've already moved on. You know that.

It is dawning on me that that lie (about how SATs are important to children) is held up by uninspiring teachers, in order to survive their test of competence. Why not just trust that children want to learn?

NC testing is a checklist of teaching competence, not of child learning. That is why there is so little relevance to outcomes even at 11+ let alone later. Secondary school teachers' viewpoint, but it's clearly handier for you to keep attributing it to me. Also the view of quite a few parents here, if you were capable of listening, or holding more than one idea in your mind.

Have a good summer, you'll need it.

Ok. Im the OP, and Im completely lost.

am I the only one not following this argument???

Somebody help.

Rosar keeps saying the most bizarrely contradictory things (about education); MRZ is taking exception to some of Rosar's sweeping generalisations; Rosar is labelling mrz a leech on society.

If you ignore everything Rosar said & was said in reply to her, there are other good contributions. I was glad to read what AbigailS said about paperwork, & what emptyshell said about teacher parents who send their own DC to same school.

Good advice ragged.
OP I'm sorry that I spoilt your thread by responding to rosar. Somewhere on the thread I did respond to your post to say that differences aren't always obvious. If you actually visited a range of schools without knowing their Ofsted rating you would struggle to tell a good school from an outstanding school and in some cases an outstanding from a satisfactory school. Talk to parents of pupils and visit yourself and trust your judgement.

I agree with emptyshell there are some outstanding schools I wouldn't send my tortoise to never mind my child and some satisfactory schools that I wouldn't hesitate to use. However no matter how good my school was I wouldn't want to teach my own children so I'm not sure it such a good indicator.

For me education is holistic not just getting Level 4 and 5 at the end of Y6. It is about helping children to grow into young adults. They need to be taught and guided into the how to handle their conflicts, friendships and emotions. They need to be taught and guided how to research and understand their interests. They need to develop curiosity and how to act upon this curiosity. To go alongside this they need to be taught how to read (to level that will let them access a secondary school curriculum), to write and basic maths (timestables, the 4 rules, measures etc.)

Anyway, an outstanding school (and there are some) will do this. But also a good school will also do this. Word of warning, even outstanding schools have teachers who are far from outstanding! I believe as a parent you still have a great deal of control and influence on child's life when they are primary school age - so try not to panic, choose a school that you like and enrich your DC's lives and they will be fine. That's what my DH and I have done. Education is life long.
There I have said my piece - thank you! x

thanks for that ragged...I did see the contradictions but thought I must be going mad in my own head, because I'm becoming even more stressed about choosing a school after this bloody thread

And guess what. I havnt even chosen a nursery yet.

Oh, and mrz, apology accepted but no need for it

lethembe...you've always talked sense.

And everyone else, thank you very much for your contribution. I think I need to stop thinking about this now though! x