Catholic school for non believers ? Or Not ?

[VeryBusy]

DS at local state primary but it's not delivering. It's time to bite the bullet and go private. There is a NICE school locally but is Catholic (we are not). They do mass every week etc. Other local private prep schools are super-pushy, exam focused above all, which is a step too far.

Does this matter ? Help am in a panic, have been so all year, need to make a decision....

[NormanTebbit]

"lavishly follow his every edict" - I didn't say that.

Can you see that from the outside my understanding is that The Pope is put in charge and that is God's will. His appointment is a statement of values, surely?

Comparing me to Ian Paisley is pure tribalism and doesn't help discussion, calling someone a bigot when you don't like their argument is playing some sort of trump card, it is aggressive and doesn't further any debate.

Is there serious debate within the Catholic church concerning ordination (is that right?) of women priests, allowing contraception, abortion, gay marriage within the church, although any information I get is through the media.

That said my friend is gay and identifies as Catholic even though he jokes that he would be struck by lightning if he attended Mass. It is still a strong identity for him, even though he is (obviously) very liberal. Is this what you are getting at, that it can be a cultural identity rather than a religious imperative?

[seeker]

Oh, and the reason that faith school appear to do better? It's because any school that has ANY form of selection does better by "weeding out" a peercentage of parents who are not as supportive of their children's education as they might be. And as we all know, it's selecting the parents that's imprtnat in these matters, not the children.

I call it the "Learn to juggle" effect. If there were 4 identical schools in a town and 3 took all comers and the 4th said that in order to get a place, the parents had to learn to juggle, that 4th school would get better exam results.

In the town where I live, the primary school which is considered "the best' is a bus ride or a car journey out of town. There are only a handful of children who can get there under their own steam. So, once agan, parents have to make an effort to get their children there, and are therefore, by definition more involved "juggling" parents - whose children would. actually, do well wherever they went.

[demsy]

I don't think this original thread is a question about personal faith it's about a child not from the catholic faith being educated in a catholic school. I think on balance most people who have been to a catholic school will say they didn't end up hating homosexuals and preaching that contraception is sinful.

[seeker]

I'm very puzzled now - why won't catholics actually say what they do believe? People keep telling me that I'm wrong in my understanding, but won't tell me where.

[NormanTebbit]

But if you don't have a personal faith, why would you send your child to a faith school?

"I think on balance most people who have been to a catholic school will say they didn't end up hating homosexuals and preaching that contraception is sinful"

No, of course not. But if you are involved in the church, if you have a faith and have liberal values, then to some extent you can challenge what comes out of the vatican. If you send your child to a Catholic school and do not have faith or attend church you have no interest in changing anything and just nod along with whatever.

[seeker]

" But if you don't have a personal faith, why would you send your child to a faith school?"

Because there aren't any "juggling" schools locally?

[sunnyday123]

there are lots of arguments against having faith schools and to a point i do agree. However its worth considering that faith schools do give people more choice and options. For example if there were no faith schools, children would go attend their local/ nearest school. This is great if this school is a good school but if its a rubbish school, it would create more barriers imo and more people would complain. Kids would be trapped according to where they live, creating greater divisions between poor and rich areas and rubbish and good schools. Currently faith schools give children a way out of a poor catchment.

For example, the nearest 3 schools to me got satisfactory on their ofsted. 2 are cofe which stipulate a 1/month church attendance. One is community taking 30 kids per year, 20 of which go to siblings, so even though only 400 metres away, we wouldn't get in. My DDs go to the catholic school 3 miles away which is the best school within a 10 mile radius with an outstanding ofsted. Without a faith, my DD like many others would have fallen in a less desirable situation. Its not ideal and unfair on those without faith, but more and more people would complain if there were no faith schools based on many more people ending up in poorer schools.

[SheCutOffTheirTails]

Sorry, that makes no sense at all.

Faith schools only offer "choice" to people who have (or fake) faith, but people who aren't religious still have to pay for them.

If there were no faith schools in your area, there would still be the same number of schools. They just wouldn't be choosing their students in a way that fucked over some kids at the expense of others.

[seeker]

A "satrifactory school" is NOT a 'rubbish school"

[mathanxiety]

Seeker, Catholics do not detach themselves at will from the Pope and the Vatican. What has happened is that you have a highly selective and incomplete apprehension of what the Pope, the Vatican and the Catholic Church are about.

FWIW, I think the current setup of government-supported faith schools is a horrible mess that only encourages hypocrisy, and I don't understand why churches would go along with it. I think the American strict separation of church and state is an excellent idea.

For those who ask why Catholics have their own schools, the career of an American Catholic Archbishop, John Hughes ('Dagger John'), who waged a campaign against religion in New York's public schools as the religion in question was Episcopalian, and at the same time supported the establishment of Catholic schools, is an example of the thinking behind them. In the UK as in the US, state schools tended to actively cast aspersions on Catholic doctrine, dogma and practices while extolling the rightness of the established church's views. Active proselytising by the established church took place in schools. Most churches have moved on from the oppositional stance of those days.

[millimoohoo]

The question I would like answered - why are education and religion linked. I understand schools started life as part of the church, why cant we move on and take religion out of school life. I believe if religion is important to a parent and they want to impose/teach their religious views to their children, thats their business. What annoys me is that MY child has to sit and listen to all the 'fairy stories' that i believe religion to be. When my ds came home and asked if I believe in god, i answered truthfully, adding that everybody is entitled to their own beliefs and he should decide for himself. As for the catholic church, any organisation that covers up child abuse in order to save its own reputation, needs obliterating off the planet. The world would be a better place without religion in my view.

[SheCutOffTheirTails]

"As for the catholic church, any organisation that covers up child abuse in order to save its own reputation, needs obliterating off the planet."

Arguably it was worse than that. Child abuse wasn't just "covered up" - it was systematised.

"why are education and religion linked"

For the same reason that New Labour were happy to sell schools (on the cheap) to business sponsors - because inculcating children with your values gives you power.

[seeker]

'Seeker, Catholics do not detach themselves at will from the Pope and the Vatican. What has happened is that you have a highly selective and incomplete apprehension of what the Pope, the Vatican and the Catholic Church are about."

No I haven't. I just picked 4 things I feel strongly about that in my understanding, a devout Catholic would believe. I know there is loads more to it, but there is not more room on this thread!

For the purposes of clarification, please can somebody tell me whether it is possible to be a devout Catholic and in a state of grace and able to recieve the sacrement while in a sexual relationship outside marriage, or while using artificial means of contraception, or while in an active homosexual relationship?

And also, does Catholic doctrine still forbis the use of condoms to prevent the spead of disease?

F

[mathanxiety]

I think your understanding of what a 'devout Catholic' would believe is not accurate since it would be impossible to ever determine the level of devoutness in question.

To answer your question, you just have to show up at Mass and present yourself for Communion. Nobody is going to quiz you about who you were with last night or how long it has been since you last went to confession. Your conscience is your own as a Catholic. It is up to you to inform yourself to whatever extent you deem fit as to the demands of your religion and what you should or should not do, but you are responsible for your own decisions as an individual Catholic. The state of grace thing is up to God to decide. Again, with the condom ban, you decide, having free will and a conscience, what you are going to do. You will ultimately be judged by God and not by the Church.

[seeker]

So basically, there are no "rules"?

To be a Catholic you mrely have to self define as such - and answer for the consequences of your actions to St Peter?

And in answer to the diect question "Can a Roman Catholic use artificial contraception?" you would say "It's up to the individual" - even though it is stricutly forbidden by the Pope speaking ex cathedra?

So what makes a Catholic a Catholic? If you, as a Catholic can act enntirely according to your individual consience, how do you know you are a Catholc?

[mathanxiety]

Of course there are rules. But it's up to you whether you follow them or not. Do you think there's some sort of mind-reader stationed at the door of each church giving a signal to the priest? The whole point about Catholicism is that you have free will. You are supposed to make the effort to inform your conscience and conform to the rules, all or some, but you can drift along with various degrees of engagement with the practice of your religion.

The Pope is not going to bust into your bedroom, haul you out of bed by the ear and smite you with his crozier if they get wind in the Vatican that you use a condom. Whether you use one is up to you. If in all good conscience you think it's fine for you no-one is going to stop you -- how could anyone? If you decide not to in all good conscience, then you don't.

The church offers sacraments, the grace of God, which you are welcome to avail of. Eucharist and Reconciliation are the two that you can avail of most frequently. Marriage theoretically happens on an ongoing basis, with the wedding being the start. Confirmation and baptism are once offs. Ordination is only available to men. The sacrament of the sick used to be called Extreme Unction and was dispensed sparingly on the deathbed/battlefield/point of death, but is more frequently used now as a comfort and solace to the sick.

How do you know you are a Catholic? If you have been baptised a Catholic then you are a Catholic. What you do about that baptism in your daily life is up to you.

[nooka]

I'd say that to be a Catholic you have to exist with a slight pervading sense of guilt that you aren't really good enough. I was brought up Catholic, went to (a very good) Catholic primary school and wouldn't touch one with a barge pole for my own children. My sister has just decided to send her dd to a Catholic high school on fairly similar grounds to the OP and I found that I was really quite appalled at her decision. I am sure that different schools do have different ways of approaching Catholicism, but especially for younger children who do have a tendency to take what is said to them as the truth and where a significant amount of the curriculum may well be devoted to religion I would be incredibly wary.

That being said I would be equally wary of any religious school, as I do not think that religion has any place in a school. It's too pervasive, and much too close to telling children how and who they should be.

[nooka]

Oh and I was christened a Catholic, but I am certainly not a Catholic any more, although I know that culturally I have been heavily influenced, so sometimes I might descrie myself as an ex-Catholic atheist. I suspect that there are a lot of people like me around. Surely to call yourself a Catholic you need to have some belief and practice in some way, otherwise it's a bit of a pointless categorization.

[mathanxiety]

'Brideshead Revisited' is a very good exposition of the 'Catholic conscience'.

As far as what is taught to young children -- mine started out learning about God's love, the fact that we are all in the family of God (lots of emphasis on the family unit), and trying to answer the question Who is my neighbour? Respect for others was interwoven into the rules and the school ethos and they participated in all sorts of exercises designed to teach responsibility for helping the less fortunate (our neighbours, brothers ans sisters in God's family) such as almsgiving during Lent for a particular project the school adopted (sent pigs and chickens to families in Haiti one year), helping the environment (created by God) by recycling and not littering; becoming familiar with practical ways to spread the love of God.

There was a lot of encouragement to do what you can in your own small way to make the world a nicer place, by kindness in the playground, quietness in class, sharing in the lunchroom, tidying up. No hellfire or brimstone or gory details of the Crucifixion.

The various Church holidays were celebrated -- the story of the Nativity was emphasised for the younger grades while Easter was emphasised for the older ones from preparation for First Communion on.

[Dorje]

" NormanTebbit Sun 19-Jun-11 08:01:56

Also people come on a say 'oh that's not the real Catholic church, not the nasty Vatican,' and you kinda think well, what isthe Catholic then, if not the Vatican with God's representative on Earth at the head if it? Are you saying the pope is wrong? Because let's face it, he thinks homosexuality is a sin."


AFAIK, the pope is st peter's vicar - that is to say he is on earth vicariously for st peter, not for christ.

Catholics aren't the only religious group who think homosexuality is a sin - you'll find most of em do actually. Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Church of Latter day saints: really everyone, except ancient religions like Ancient Hellenic faith systems, and Roman ones. Even in ancient Egypt where insest was acceptable, homosexuality wasn't allowed openly. Hinduism sees all desire as problematic, including sexual desire, as you are trapped in the cycle of death and rebirth, and the transition to Nirvana is less likely. Zarathustra didn't go in for it when founding the Zoroastrian faith system either. So you see, it's pretty frowned upon all over and throughout time also.

Catholicism IMVHO is not the worst religion, and a school run on catholic values is not the hot bed of brainwashing or rampant paedophilia that some on this thread have wildly asserted.

Perhaps Seeker and Norman are reincarnated roundheads? Or Tudors? [waves][smiles]

[mathanxiety]

Homosexuality (the sexual orientation) is not considered a sin by the Catholic Church. It is considered an 'objective disorder'. Homosexual sex is considered a sin. (Just for the sake of accuracy.)

[nooka]

Ive always thought that a particularly cruel distinction, and it's not unique to Catholicism. My sister is an ordained CoE vicar and also promoted the 'hate the sin, not the sinner' line. I think it is appalling that anyone in a position of power should be allowed to say such hurtful and discriminatory things without challenge.

[seeker]

"Catholicism IMVHO is not the worst religion, and a school run on catholic values is not the hot bed of brainwashing or rampant paedophilia that some on this thread have wildly asserted.

Perhaps Seeker and Norman are reincarnated roundheads? Or Tudors? [waves][smiles]"

I don;t think I ever said they were. The OP asked about the potential difficulties of being a non-catholic family at a Catholie school. I pointed out a few things which I thought were basic elements of Catholic teaching that I felt non-Catholic people might find problematic. I am still a little surprised that people are saying these things are no longer essential parts of the Catholic faith - as I said before, I do hope someone has told the Pope!

[NormanTebbit]

I'm an atheist and would have been burned or drowned as witch probably. So you saying, Catholicism ain't the worst so, you know, don't worry about it?

I could happily contribute to a thread on any religion and point out how illogical and frankly damaging it is, because I don't believe any of it. Although I don't go around saying people shouldn't practise Catholicism (I'd defend you right to workship the dishwasher God in your kitchen if you wanted to) just that I don't understand how you can change the goalposts constantly unless Catholicism is more of a cultural identity which stands for...what, exactly?

[sunnyday123]

the thread is taking far too much of a religious argument - the op asked whether it mattered if her non catholic child attended a catholic school and i think the general opinion is it wouldn't IF they feel they can support the school and its teaching. Being so negative about the catholic religion is not needed.

So much has been said about the catholics opinion on things but what many of the parents who use catholic schools on here have said is that those arguments do not get represented in school. The op doesn't want her children to join the catholic faith, just wanted insight into what goes on in catholic schools. People are assuming the very obvious principles of the faith get represented at school which they don't - or not that i've seen.

In my experience, catholic schools i have attended and my DDs school too focus on loving god and thy neighbour, the family events, environment etc similar to another post (from first hand experience too) and don't pass on such heavy opinions in school. The fundamentals etc of the vatical and so on are not relevant to the OPs question. Yes they impact on the catholic faith but they are not all mentioned in school so the OP does not need to fear these when choosing a school. I've never heard of a catholic schools teaching such negative beliefs, most of my old teachers and my DDs current teachers probably don't believe them now. Catholic schools still teach PSE which covers different angles of topics according to the national curriculum. Seriously, catholic schools (near me anyway) these days are no more religious than cofe.