Catholic school for non believers ? Or Not ?

[VeryBusy]

DS at local state primary but it's not delivering. It's time to bite the bullet and go private. There is a NICE school locally but is Catholic (we are not). They do mass every week etc. Other local private prep schools are super-pushy, exam focused above all, which is a step too far.

Does this matter ? Help am in a panic, have been so all year, need to make a decision....

[NormanTebbit]

aa single belief does not a belief system make...

[wildkittydeer]

You are talking like a twat do you really think people who sleep around like dogs have abortions and all the other shit you talk about would stop and say 'Oi we'd better not do birth control, the Pope don't like it!' Grow up.

[Dorje]

Do you not believe there is no god seeker?

Do you have proof then, and if so, show me... let's see your proof.

No?


Then you do believe there is no god, ergo, atheism is a belief system.

[Jinx1906]

I went to a catholic school, although the whole family are non Catholics, and loved every minute of it.

Having said that, with all the bad press the Catholic Church is getting nowadays, the question begs; are these really the kind of people I would like to look after my children? Sadly, for us the answer to that one has to be NO.

[seeker]

atheism is not a belief system!

[NormanTebbit]

I actually do worship my dishwasher.

[nooka]

Atheism is not a belief system unless you are using a very bizarre definition of belief. I have family and friends who have faith, and it is the cornerstone of their lives, whereas my non belief is generally irrelevant in making decisions about anything.

Faith to me is an added extra - for example when I look at a beautiful sunset, I just think 'how beautiful' my mother on the other hand would think 'how beautiful, thanks be to God'. When I chose an estate agent to sell my house I made a judgement on the basis of a mixture of rational and emotional factors, my BIL started with the same thought process, and then prayed, and went with what he felt his god told him.

[Dorje]

NormanTebbit Tue 21-Jun-11 08:16:22

"I'm an atheist and would have been burned or drowned as witch probably. So you saying, Catholicism ain't the worst so, you know, don't worry about it?"

Hummm, I don't get you? Do you mean you would have been burned or drowned by Catholics, or by Islamists? Or by Shamans? Or by a particular Buddhist sect? Or by Voodoo practitioners?

Maybe you're right to be worried by all of it! Though atheism is a faith system too....
I applaud you decision not to worship the dishwater: the Mesopotamians gave up on that deity (muddy water) long, long ago, so I doubt that you'll have to defend anyone's rights there!!

[sunnyday123]

there is no justification, there are schools to represent many faiths in britain today - the fundamental principles of many are the same - noone is saying its right or wrong, just the way it is. My friends kids in CofE all covered the same topics as mine this year, as did some of the community schools. They all follow the national curriculum. If you look at the school and not just the religion itself, most people in the school will be no more religious than the next and modern schools reflect that. People these days tend to pick the schools which are best for their child not just because of their religion- its just that catholic schools can perform better in certain areas. One catholic school near me is awful and as such never gets more than 5 applications per year despite the church being full every sunday. Catholic people are not all as heavy thinking as its been made out on here.

I see why people don't want faith in schools however unless that changes people without faith will continue to limit their childs schooling options- wrong i agree but still a fact. There is only 1 non faith school near me and 5 faith- that non faith fills up so quick anyone without a faith and wanting a non faith school would have to travel 5+ miles for a school. Personally, i think my kids attending a school that far would have a worse affect than attending a faith school, but again i do agree its an unfair situation.

[seeker]

"Seriously, catholic schools (near me anyway) these days are no more religious than cofe."

So what 's the justification for there being special Catholic schools, then?

[OrangeHat]

Depends on the school. As it's a private school I'm sure they will have all sorts of literature you can look at to see how "full on" it is. And talk to them. Then decide.

[sunnyday123]

the thread is taking far too much of a religious argument - the op asked whether it mattered if her non catholic child attended a catholic school and i think the general opinion is it wouldn't IF they feel they can support the school and its teaching. Being so negative about the catholic religion is not needed.

So much has been said about the catholics opinion on things but what many of the parents who use catholic schools on here have said is that those arguments do not get represented in school. The op doesn't want her children to join the catholic faith, just wanted insight into what goes on in catholic schools. People are assuming the very obvious principles of the faith get represented at school which they don't - or not that i've seen.

In my experience, catholic schools i have attended and my DDs school too focus on loving god and thy neighbour, the family events, environment etc similar to another post (from first hand experience too) and don't pass on such heavy opinions in school. The fundamentals etc of the vatical and so on are not relevant to the OPs question. Yes they impact on the catholic faith but they are not all mentioned in school so the OP does not need to fear these when choosing a school. I've never heard of a catholic schools teaching such negative beliefs, most of my old teachers and my DDs current teachers probably don't believe them now. Catholic schools still teach PSE which covers different angles of topics according to the national curriculum. Seriously, catholic schools (near me anyway) these days are no more religious than cofe.

[NormanTebbit]

I'm an atheist and would have been burned or drowned as witch probably. So you saying, Catholicism ain't the worst so, you know, don't worry about it?

I could happily contribute to a thread on any religion and point out how illogical and frankly damaging it is, because I don't believe any of it. Although I don't go around saying people shouldn't practise Catholicism (I'd defend you right to workship the dishwasher God in your kitchen if you wanted to) just that I don't understand how you can change the goalposts constantly unless Catholicism is more of a cultural identity which stands for...what, exactly?

[seeker]

"Catholicism IMVHO is not the worst religion, and a school run on catholic values is not the hot bed of brainwashing or rampant paedophilia that some on this thread have wildly asserted.

Perhaps Seeker and Norman are reincarnated roundheads? Or Tudors? [waves][smiles]"

I don;t think I ever said they were. The OP asked about the potential difficulties of being a non-catholic family at a Catholie school. I pointed out a few things which I thought were basic elements of Catholic teaching that I felt non-Catholic people might find problematic. I am still a little surprised that people are saying these things are no longer essential parts of the Catholic faith - as I said before, I do hope someone has told the Pope!

[nooka]

Ive always thought that a particularly cruel distinction, and it's not unique to Catholicism. My sister is an ordained CoE vicar and also promoted the 'hate the sin, not the sinner' line. I think it is appalling that anyone in a position of power should be allowed to say such hurtful and discriminatory things without challenge.

[mathanxiety]

Homosexuality (the sexual orientation) is not considered a sin by the Catholic Church. It is considered an 'objective disorder'. Homosexual sex is considered a sin. (Just for the sake of accuracy.)

[Dorje]

" NormanTebbit Sun 19-Jun-11 08:01:56

Also people come on a say 'oh that's not the real Catholic church, not the nasty Vatican,' and you kinda think well, what isthe Catholic then, if not the Vatican with God's representative on Earth at the head if it? Are you saying the pope is wrong? Because let's face it, he thinks homosexuality is a sin."


AFAIK, the pope is st peter's vicar - that is to say he is on earth vicariously for st peter, not for christ.

Catholics aren't the only religious group who think homosexuality is a sin - you'll find most of em do actually. Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Church of Latter day saints: really everyone, except ancient religions like Ancient Hellenic faith systems, and Roman ones. Even in ancient Egypt where insest was acceptable, homosexuality wasn't allowed openly. Hinduism sees all desire as problematic, including sexual desire, as you are trapped in the cycle of death and rebirth, and the transition to Nirvana is less likely. Zarathustra didn't go in for it when founding the Zoroastrian faith system either. So you see, it's pretty frowned upon all over and throughout time also.

Catholicism IMVHO is not the worst religion, and a school run on catholic values is not the hot bed of brainwashing or rampant paedophilia that some on this thread have wildly asserted.

Perhaps Seeker and Norman are reincarnated roundheads? Or Tudors? [waves][smiles]

[mathanxiety]

'Brideshead Revisited' is a very good exposition of the 'Catholic conscience'.

As far as what is taught to young children -- mine started out learning about God's love, the fact that we are all in the family of God (lots of emphasis on the family unit), and trying to answer the question Who is my neighbour? Respect for others was interwoven into the rules and the school ethos and they participated in all sorts of exercises designed to teach responsibility for helping the less fortunate (our neighbours, brothers ans sisters in God's family) such as almsgiving during Lent for a particular project the school adopted (sent pigs and chickens to families in Haiti one year), helping the environment (created by God) by recycling and not littering; becoming familiar with practical ways to spread the love of God.

There was a lot of encouragement to do what you can in your own small way to make the world a nicer place, by kindness in the playground, quietness in class, sharing in the lunchroom, tidying up. No hellfire or brimstone or gory details of the Crucifixion.

The various Church holidays were celebrated -- the story of the Nativity was emphasised for the younger grades while Easter was emphasised for the older ones from preparation for First Communion on.

[nooka]

Oh and I was christened a Catholic, but I am certainly not a Catholic any more, although I know that culturally I have been heavily influenced, so sometimes I might descrie myself as an ex-Catholic atheist. I suspect that there are a lot of people like me around. Surely to call yourself a Catholic you need to have some belief and practice in some way, otherwise it's a bit of a pointless categorization.

[nooka]

I'd say that to be a Catholic you have to exist with a slight pervading sense of guilt that you aren't really good enough. I was brought up Catholic, went to (a very good) Catholic primary school and wouldn't touch one with a barge pole for my own children. My sister has just decided to send her dd to a Catholic high school on fairly similar grounds to the OP and I found that I was really quite appalled at her decision. I am sure that different schools do have different ways of approaching Catholicism, but especially for younger children who do have a tendency to take what is said to them as the truth and where a significant amount of the curriculum may well be devoted to religion I would be incredibly wary.

That being said I would be equally wary of any religious school, as I do not think that religion has any place in a school. It's too pervasive, and much too close to telling children how and who they should be.

[mathanxiety]

Of course there are rules. But it's up to you whether you follow them or not. Do you think there's some sort of mind-reader stationed at the door of each church giving a signal to the priest? The whole point about Catholicism is that you have free will. You are supposed to make the effort to inform your conscience and conform to the rules, all or some, but you can drift along with various degrees of engagement with the practice of your religion.

The Pope is not going to bust into your bedroom, haul you out of bed by the ear and smite you with his crozier if they get wind in the Vatican that you use a condom. Whether you use one is up to you. If in all good conscience you think it's fine for you no-one is going to stop you -- how could anyone? If you decide not to in all good conscience, then you don't.

The church offers sacraments, the grace of God, which you are welcome to avail of. Eucharist and Reconciliation are the two that you can avail of most frequently. Marriage theoretically happens on an ongoing basis, with the wedding being the start. Confirmation and baptism are once offs. Ordination is only available to men. The sacrament of the sick used to be called Extreme Unction and was dispensed sparingly on the deathbed/battlefield/point of death, but is more frequently used now as a comfort and solace to the sick.

How do you know you are a Catholic? If you have been baptised a Catholic then you are a Catholic. What you do about that baptism in your daily life is up to you.

[seeker]

So basically, there are no "rules"?

To be a Catholic you mrely have to self define as such - and answer for the consequences of your actions to St Peter?

And in answer to the diect question "Can a Roman Catholic use artificial contraception?" you would say "It's up to the individual" - even though it is stricutly forbidden by the Pope speaking ex cathedra?

So what makes a Catholic a Catholic? If you, as a Catholic can act enntirely according to your individual consience, how do you know you are a Catholc?

[mathanxiety]

I think your understanding of what a 'devout Catholic' would believe is not accurate since it would be impossible to ever determine the level of devoutness in question.

To answer your question, you just have to show up at Mass and present yourself for Communion. Nobody is going to quiz you about who you were with last night or how long it has been since you last went to confession. Your conscience is your own as a Catholic. It is up to you to inform yourself to whatever extent you deem fit as to the demands of your religion and what you should or should not do, but you are responsible for your own decisions as an individual Catholic. The state of grace thing is up to God to decide. Again, with the condom ban, you decide, having free will and a conscience, what you are going to do. You will ultimately be judged by God and not by the Church.

[seeker]

'Seeker, Catholics do not detach themselves at will from the Pope and the Vatican. What has happened is that you have a highly selective and incomplete apprehension of what the Pope, the Vatican and the Catholic Church are about."

No I haven't. I just picked 4 things I feel strongly about that in my understanding, a devout Catholic would believe. I know there is loads more to it, but there is not more room on this thread!

For the purposes of clarification, please can somebody tell me whether it is possible to be a devout Catholic and in a state of grace and able to recieve the sacrement while in a sexual relationship outside marriage, or while using artificial means of contraception, or while in an active homosexual relationship?

And also, does Catholic doctrine still forbis the use of condoms to prevent the spead of disease?

F

[SheCutOffTheirTails]

"As for the catholic church, any organisation that covers up child abuse in order to save its own reputation, needs obliterating off the planet."

Arguably it was worse than that. Child abuse wasn't just "covered up" - it was systematised.

"why are education and religion linked"

For the same reason that New Labour were happy to sell schools (on the cheap) to business sponsors - because inculcating children with your values gives you power.