Catholic school for non believers ? Or Not ?

[VeryBusy]

DS at local state primary but it's not delivering. It's time to bite the bullet and go private. There is a NICE school locally but is Catholic (we are not). They do mass every week etc. Other local private prep schools are super-pushy, exam focused above all, which is a step too far.

Does this matter ? Help am in a panic, have been so all year, need to make a decision....

[KenDoddsDadsDog]

What I was trying to say seeker is that it may be doctrine but is on the whole not "indoctrinated" in a school or Sunday service. I haven't heard this preached in a sermon since I was at school. But the bare facts are that it exist and therefore taught at an RC school.
You can't pick the 'nice' parts and not come across the ugly.

[PatientGriselda]

And another thing. To borrow from political reality - governing is done by those who show up. So every catholic who thinks that things aren't quite right and just backs off is just leaving more room for decisiOns to be made with which they don't agree. A bit like people whining about how their taxes are spent, but never bothering to vote. Or campaigning to get the vote in the first place.

Seeker, there is nothing wrong with being catholic. And it is naive in the extreme to think that Catholics all agree with the pope, pass on his word as gospel to future generations, and make no attempt whatsoever to reduce the bad and increase the good done by the church.

[seeker]

OK - I'm in Alice Through the Looking Glass territory here. (and I'm not anxious about anything, btw!)

You can be a Catholic but not believe any of the tenets of the Catholic faith.

It's OK to send your children to Catholic schools because, even though there are some elements of the faith you don;t agree with it doesn't matter because the teachers probably don't either and the children will make up their own minds anyway.

So, by extension, when they learn theri Catechism, and take part in the Mass, nobody expects anyone actually to believe that stuff.

[NormanTebbit]

I think that yes the church is the people who 'turn up' but what about those who send their child to Catholic schools because it is the 'better' option but choose to turn a blind eye to aspects which are downright wrong and have an impact on millions? these people have no interest in church politics or doctrine, they just want to grab what they can for their child- and the church knows this, Protestant and Catholic.

Also where I live faith schools have extremely divisive between Catholic and non- denom or 'proddy school' as it's so delightfully called

[PatientGriselda]

Well yes, I think I agree with you, normantebbit, that people taking those places for academic reasons really ought to be thinking critically about wider issues. But if the school is really that good, then the pupils should be learning to think critically there anyway. Which was certainly my experience.

[SheCutOffTheirTails]

No, Norman, I'm not contradicting myself.

Thinking that the Catholic Church is a shite organisation is not the same as thinking that all Catholics believe everything the Pope says.

And thinking that Catholics go along with everything the Pope says (and can't be trusted because of it) is at the very heart of anti-Catholic bigotry going right back to the 17th Century. Not that I think Catholics are a persecuted minority or anything. But that's always been the argument. Sometimes, as in the case of Ulster Unionists fears that the Irish Free State would be run by the Catholic Church, with some justification.

Criticising Catholics for being prepared to align themselves with an organisation that can preach the evil the Catholic Church teachers is one thing, but presuming that all Catholics are of one mind on issues of sexual morality (which is not central to Catholic belief) is ignorant.

My Grandmother takes her religion very seriously. She loathes the current Pope. She still refers to him with a hissed "Rrrrratzinger". To her he is the living embodiment of everything that is wrong with the Church. She had a major crisis of faith over the sexual abuse scandals and the fact that the Catholic Church had been complicit in abuse. She thought very seriously about converting to a Protestant church, but in the end she couldn't bear to leave the faith she has had for her entire life.

She is pro-choice, she supported all the Irish divorce referenda, she is furious about the condom teaching, she is in favour of married priests, female ordination, against gay people being discriminated against. She's a well-educated, well-read, liberal intellectual AND a Catholic. Is that so hard to imagine? She's far from the only one.

I can quite see why a person wouldn't want to send their children to Catholic school. I can quite see why a person would want to criticise the Catholic church and people who are prepared to overlook the evil it does. But it is just silly (and a little big bigoted) to think that going to Mass and believing in the god you were brought up with means you are a mindless automaton on matters of sexual morality.

"So, by extension, when they learn theri Catechism, and take part in the Mass, nobody expects anyone actually to believe that stuff."

I never learnt any Catechism. But other than that, pretty much, yes :o

[SheCutOffTheirTails]

"Also where I live faith schools have extremely divisive between Catholic and non- denom or 'proddy school' as it's so delightfully called"

I think I live near you.

I'm not from here, so I don't understand the system.

It makes me sad that my kids will go to nursery with all the kids from the town, but then for primary they will be segregated. :(

[NormanTebbit]

Yes it makes me sad too. My kids have made good friends in nursery but are then split up for primary.

[NormanTebbit]

So when i said this:
"Of course there are millions of entirely sensible people who are Catholic and who take from it what they will."

I was being bigoted

FWIW I am an English atheist living in Scotland. I was not raised in any religion and I find Islam equally problematic. I think people should be free to practise any religion they want (within the law) but I am vehemently against faith schools and against people grabbing some perceived educational adventage by paying lip service to it.

And it propbably is true that Catholic schools are more progressive than they once were ot when DP's contemporaries attended Catholic schools in the '70's but it still instils a tribal identity - even if you do not believe in the doctrine to the letter - which is divisive, certainly within the societal context that my children grow up in. And that is a crying shame.

[seeker]

"
"So, by extension, when they learn theri Catechism, and take part in the Mass, nobody expects anyone actually to believe that stuff."

I never learnt any Catechism. But other than that, pretty much, yes grin"

So what makes a Catholic a Catholic? Transubstantiation? Or is that optional too?

[seeker]

Now hang on a minute! I've just thought of something.

If you Catholics don't actually believe anything different to everyone else why do you need your own schools?

[SheCutOffTheirTails]

Norman

No, that's not bigoted. But insisting that "proper" Catholics agree with the Pope and don't make up their own minds on moral issues is getting pretty close.

I agree with you entirely on faith schools.

seeker - you have some very weird ideas about Catholicism.

Catholics don't need a soundbite slogan that makes it clear how they differ from Protestants. They don't define themselves entirely in terms of those differences, except in parts of Ireland and Scotland. Catholics are Christians, so the important teachings are Christian ones, e.g. "love one another as I have loved you"

[SheCutOffTheirTails]

No, a better question is why believing different things should mean you need your own school.

[seeker]

People keep telling me that I have wierd ideas about Catholicism.

Does that mean that Catholic doctrine no longer forbids artificial birth control - and by extension the use of condoms to prevent the spread of STIs, sex outside marriage and abortion?

Because as far as I remember, that is all I have said about catholicism on this thread.

[seeker]

And all Christians theoretically follow Jesus' teaching of "love one another"

What makes Catholics different?

[superjobeespecs]

my DDs best friend from nursery went to the catholic school 5 mins from us and her mum asked if i'd be putting DD, i said no as we are not religious and the school we've chosen is also a good school re:ofsted reports etc. now DDs been taught about jesus etc around christmas and easter im actually resentful of the fact i didnt put her to the catholic school. its a good school that could answer all the questions i cant about religion etc also as an athiest i feel like a hypocrite when i answer with what little i do know :( its a pain.

[superjobeespecs]

re: ofsted

[NormanTebbit]

I didn't know it was possible to be a 'little bit bigoted,'...anyway. Forgive me for thinking that if you are a Catholic, you agree with God's representative on Earth. I didn't realise that was a bigoted belief.

As to faith schools? It comes from tribalism and from years of being persecuted for practising a religion. I can see that people cling harder to their beliefs and community when feeling under threat. But these schools are a relic and have no place in 21st century Britain, by all means people should go to church if they want to but religion should not form part of our education system, except studied as an academic subject alongside philosophy.

[SheCutOffTheirTails]

Actually you've characterised Catholic education as something that I, and several others who have experienced it, don't recognise.

But yet apparently it's not OK to say a school is shit unless you have direct experience.

I'm not going to bother replying to you anymore. You are not interested in the reality of Catholicism, just in your simplistic imagined ideal of what it is.

I don't even believe in any of it, but I still find your ignorant ranting offensive.

[SheCutOffTheirTails]

Why wouldn't it be possible to be a little bit bigoted?

Is it a binary? You're either entirely bigot or not at all?

And yes, thinking that all Catholics think of the Pope as God's representative on earth, and slavishly follow his every edict is such is verging on Paisley-ite bigotry.

[seeker]

'I'm not going to bother replying to you anymore. You are not interested in the reality of Catholicism, just in your simplistic imagined ideal of what it is.

I don't even believe in any of it, but I still find your ignorant ranting offensive."

Please show me where I have ranted. Ignorantly or otherwise.

[Eglu]

Friends of ours sent their DSes to the local catholic primary as the other school was so bad. It seems to have worked well for them.

[NormanTebbit]

I don't think anyone is ranting here.

You don't even believe in it so why such an emotional reaction?

[seeker]

I genuinely thought that one of the basic tenets of Catholicism was that, for Catholics, the Pope is God's repreentative on earthm and was therefore in a position, on occasion, to speak "ex cathedra" - that is, without the possibility of error by divine intervention.

Am I wrong about that?

[jalapeno]

If you Catholics don't actually believe anything different to everyone else why do you need your own schools?

This is very true. I think we could all (privately or publicly) agree that this moral dilemma has a lot less to do with religion and a lot more to do with a mild snobbery.

The problem is that if a school is excluding applicants on the basis of them not being catholic and then isn't actually practising catholic values then the school is "screening" for a certain kind of parent. Snobbery by the back door really.

If a school is catholic and yet allows any denomination or atheist pupils in...I can't see the point? Why not make it a secular school with additional religious activities for those that want it?

To answer the OP, I would rather stick with the non-performing primary and trigger improvements OR go private. I am a liberal sort of atheist and loosely base my moral code on Christianity as most things are sort of obvious good human practise ideas but the thought of my DSs being taught any of the rubbish that the Catholic Church "officially" stand by would negate any academic success imho. The catholic-lite approach must make for some very confused teenagers and awkward moral debates!

Perhaps there should be a new religion for people with school-aged children that enjoy being with other outwardly-morally-superior people but also agree with choice for abortion and contraception for all women? Or is that just CofE?