is anyone else in a total panic about getting into primary schools in london?

[mamaesi]

Three of my friends have been placed in schools not even on their preferred list of six. The schools are accepting less than 11 new children due to siblings, etc... and I have been told that even though there are 4 really good state schools in my area, that each one of them has an catchment area of less than 0.2 of a mile! I do not live that close to any of them!

I have one child and another on the way and I am trying to decide on a nursery for the older one.... I thought I would go private, but now I am thinking I should try to get into the nursery attached to the primary school... does that help at all? how do you get in?

Another friend has told me that in three years time they might start 'means testing' because they simple will not have enough spaces for reception for london children. I feel so worried and stressed already! We are by no means on benefits...but we cannot afford two children in private schools for 25,000 a year!

anyone else freaking out?? I am not from the UK so this all seems overwhelming to me...

What people do is:

• move to another area or out of London or close to the school of their choice (many do rent)
• pay private (cheaper in many parts of London than the cost of living next to good schools)
• send child to whatever school they are allocated and stay on the waiting list for all the better schools, as there is lots of movement in London and move them if a place is allocated
• hope that a miracle may come along and somebody might build a school for all these new kids that have flocked in the boroughs with lots of ofsted outstanding schools.

In the end the state school system is free, and also parenting will have a bigger influence on your childs outcome than the school.

Good luck - we moved out and have not regretted it, class size in reception in my village school is 15!

You missed one fiddledee

• get religion

Another one

• send their children to the school they didn't want and realise that it's not all bad and actually has something going for it, especially when they realise their kids are happy and doing well academically

Do you mind me asking if you're actually visited the schools you mention or spoken to the present teachers/parents?

Just to add that having your child in the nursery attached to the primary school does not help your child get into the school at all (if you get info about applying from your council, you will see the LEA or schools mention this.) Only thing that counts is distance, unless you already an older child attending that school. If private options are not open to you, then rent or buy a home virtually next door to the school (but you'll actually have to live there, not have it as a second property). Obviously this makes you only near one preferred school, and not any others you like.

I do know at least one good state school which gives priority to children from its nursery (or did for 2010 anyway) - it's rare but it's not unheard of, you have to check the small print.

I don't want to add to the sense of panic, but I am feeling very concerned about whether we will get a place for this september at all and i have been told by my local council that i should consider home schooling. We are on waiting lists and our postion on the lists ranges from 36 to 64. I know things can change but I am feeling despondent about whether we will get a place anywhere. I'm really struggling to keep perspective on the whole thing. All wise words and experience MUCH appreciated.

It is beyond outrageous that your LEA told you to consider home-schooling. Is this a tacit admission that they have failed to provide a school place for your child (as they are required by law to do) and will still have failed to do so by September?

My advice is

1. Don't let up on your LEA. Make it clear that your child needs a school place.

1. Are lots of people in your situation? If so, start a campaign and lobby for bulge classes to be set up for those children without school places.

1. The LEA may have information about available school places in neighbouring LEAs - ask for that, so that you can apply and join waiting lists there (if that's feasible for you).

1. Get in touch with your local councillor - they could (and in my view should) put some heat under the LEA officers to do something for you and anyone else in the same situation.

1. If still nothing's doing, think about appealing. Appeals for infant admissions are hard to win if it's an infant class size case - if you post more information, we may be able to say more about your chances - but if the LEA has failed to find any place for your child, an appeal panel may be willing to stick its neck out for you and order your child to be admitted.

I responded on your other thread to say that a friend of mine had found a couple of schools with places in your borough this week. Have the LEA told you that there are no places in the borough?

see what I mean...my fears are not unfounded... people all across london are getting horrible placements or none at all! These are not 'rumours'.

I actually would rather home school, than send my child miles away to a consistently troubled school...but this concept really puts me over the edge. We work hard, pay high taxes and try our best for our family and we are not even provided with decent education!

But what some of us have been trying to say, mamaesi, is that there really are very few schools indeed which are 'horrible'. I have been on the education threads for a long time now and - speaking generally here - what I have noticed is that many people assume that any school that isn't rated as 'outstanding' by Ofsted is a terrible school and their child will receive a terrible education there. That simply isn't true, and the whole point of an 'outstanding' rating is that the school stands out from those around it, so of course the majority of schools aren't outstanding.

I think you are right to worry. It's true that oustanding schools are not the only good ones. But there are all sorts of other reasons why good and satisfactory schools might be unsatisfactory to a parent - poor management, v high staff turnover, uninspiring curriculum, and being driven to focus on basic SATs results and nothing else are the main complaints around here. Our school isn't horrible, but it does suffer badly from all this, partly because it has a long history of deprived intake and poor results. It was our only option, I wanted to give it a chance, but I wish I hadn't risked it and had moved heaven and earth to move into the right street instead. It's got worse not better, we've had a crap reception year, and the pressure on places means I don't think it's worth moving now as nowhere has any space. And the high-handed management ignores parents, including parent governors. Parents of older kids tell us to wait it out for a place in another school but I'm not convinced this is any longer a viable plan.

The 'rumour' that was referred to was the discussion about means-testing that you introduced in your opening post.

Have you actually visited the schools around you? I'm not dismissing your concerns, it's just that I do know a few people like ourselves whose schools looks far from great on paper but are actually working out to be a good experience for their kids.

There's a big difference between a school that might not have been your first choice and a 'horrible' one. Panelmember talks a lot of sense.

trifling, I know quite a few teachers who work in 'outstanding' schools who also criticise their schools for poor management, weak curriculum and being very SATS focused.

Yes but I was also referring to 'rumours' or local talk that a particular school is not so great.

If you say your school is on the low end of satisfactory and yet you are very happy with it then you are beyond lucky. That is not the experience I am hearing from friends and ex-teachers.

Outstanding schools, yeah right! I haven't a hope of getting in those. And actually not a hope of getting into a single one that is even 'good'. This is my dismay. I will put 6, yes 6 schools on my application, all of which I am more than the right distance from and I will get into none. I have only one school near to me and it has one of the lowest marks in the entire borough! (and of course has a few spots available) This is my dilemma...I wish it were only about not getting my 'top' choice. Its about no choice.

Totally agree. Choice is an absolute fiasco in London and probably lots of other places too. Anyway I don't want choice, I want a school with dependable teachers who are well treated, and some attention to more than the most basic levels of achievement. It'd be nice if all those 'bad' schools people dismiss without visiting them were actually great or even acceptable but the reality is, they often aren't. At least my borough has enough places even if they are in undesirable far out schools - it's beyond belief that one council has advised home schooling (and might make a news story too)

What did you think when you went to look around the school?

Is it completely out of the question to move and rent somewhere?

This is what we had to do - we were in the catchment area for only one primary with the lowest marks for the Borough (probably the same one!!) and a notorious secondary (I knew teachers there) to move on to afterwards.

we have a friend with no kids...close enough to the best school. considering doing a swap. I suppose we would need proper renting contracts and such...

but his flat would be a little tight...not nearly as big as ours. the question is then, could we stay there just to get in...then move back to our place?

how does it work if you move slightly further then the catchment, once they are in? how soon can you move away?

PanelMember Fri 17-Jun-11 16:18:54

What an excellent post and I wholeheartedly agree. OP, go and see for yourself. Some of the 'best' schools are only the best by rumour. Make up your own mind.

I got involved with our local school (bad rep, just out of special measures) about a year before DS1 was due to start. I wanted to see what really went on week in week out so I became a reading volunteer in Year 1. I was lucky; I could because DH works later in the day so could look after the DCs in the morning and it was only half an hour twice a week. Some things I was really impressed by, others not so much but the children were happy, learning loads and motivated. That's enough for me!

Rumour and Ofsted don't mean an awful lot until you've seen it for yourself and compared it with other schools in the area. Good luck!

Or do what my friends did and just wait it out. They sent their DD to the school they were allocated (not one of their choices) and went on the waiting list for all the schools they preferred. Their DD is ending Reception in the not so nice place now and just received an offer of a place at a much better school they hadn't a hope in hell of getting into last year. There is a lot of movement so it is very possible a place will come up.

It's also worth saying that DS's school being in special measures seems to have been the best thing to happen to it for ages. There was a total clear out of staff, the appointment of a 'super' head (who's amazing) and a huge injection of money and permanent, experienced teachers. As I think I saw another poster say on a recent thread, better to be in a school that knows where it's going rather than where it's been...

mamaesi, you'll find loads on just these questions in the archives if you search.

Most LEAs now are aware that some families will rent a property, simply to have an address from which to apply for a school. They often ask for things like utility bills, child benefit statements and so on, to check that the family is actually living at the address. Fraud is one of the very few situations in which school places can be withdrawn, before or after the child starts school, as the Admissions Code 2010 (available on the Dept for Education website) says:

1.50 Once an offer of a school place has been made it is only reasonable for an admission authority to withdraw that offer in very limited circumstances. These may include when a parent has failed to respond to an offer within a reasonable time or the admission authority offered the place on the basis of a fraudulent or intentionally misleading application from a parent (for example, a false claim to residence in a catchment area) which effectively denied a place to another child; or where a place was offered under co-ordination by the local authority, not the admission authority, in error. If a parent has not responded to the offer of a place within a reasonable time, the admission authority must remind the parent of the need to respond within a further seven days and point out that the place may be withdrawn if they do not.

1.51 A school must not withdraw a place once a child has started at the school, except where that place was fraudulently obtained. In deciding whether to withdraw the place, the length of time that the child had been at the school must be taken into account, for example, it might be considered appropriate to withdraw the place if the child has been at the school for less than one term. Where a place is withdrawn on the basis of misleading information, the application must be considered afresh, and a right of appeal offered if a place is refused.

There is nothing to stop families moving way once a child has a school place, but if they move very quickly the school might review the application to consider whether there was any fraud. Another issue that sometimes arises is that out-of-catchment siblings may be a long way down the oversubscription criteria, so moving away once the first child has got a place may mean that younger siblings don't get places.

As Rosebud says, there are lots of threads about this.

This is why we moved out of London when DCs were 3 and one. DH took a drop in salary and I lost the opportunity to return to work after maternity leave. Financially difficult, but the best thing we ever did. All our local schools are fine - not necessarily "outstanding", but absolutely fine - filled with children from the diverse local community and the secondary schools are just fine too.

I'm sure your DCs will be happy enough in the schools you don't necessarily like the look or sound of. You just might not be happy with the other parents in the playground.

There are plenty of schools that have a 'bad reputation' which are actually fine - maybe they were a bit crap a few years ago but they've sorted themselves out. changing a reputation takes much longer...

That said I've heard of one London primary school where the entire intake is siblings - eeek! It maybe an urban myth but did put the frightners on me a bit...