Army visiting school

[eandemum]

DD came home today - had had a great time as the army (2 soldiers) had visited and spoke to the 3 classes in her year - giving out stickers, pencils, children trying on camouflage stuff/helmets etc and holding a gun.

First thing we knew re: this was when DD said at hometime said "I want to join the army", when asked why she said "so I can kill people"
BUT I do realise this would NOT have come from the soldiers.

Didn't know beforehand about this from the school and if had wouldn't have stopped her joining in.

But is this a bit early for "recruiting"?
or
is it simply a fun visit for the children and great for the school as it is fun and free and the school needs visits like this budget-wise??

BTW DD is 5 and in Reception. What do you think?

amberleaf: I can absolutely assure you that there is no/no recruitment drive aimed at 5 year olds.

Recruitment stands tend not to show anything gory (in much the same way as the emergency services don't either, or by extrapolation nursing doesn't show suppurating wounds or bedpans) but if they cover infantry, then yes the aspect of danger is there. And if recruiting stand interest is taken on by the candidate to the next step, a visit to a recruiting office, then the dangerous/bad stuff is covered. There's no bait and switch.

"Even the adverts on TV manage to make being in the army look exciting, fun and glamorous"

Show me a job advert that doesn't focus on the positive aspects of the job!

I do take the point that most parents would be uneasy about their child expressing a wish to join the Forces, especially if they don't come from a Service background and I am also quite happy to admit that as an Army wife I have no problem with the Forces being part of any career fair or presentation at school.

Ilovetiffany ^No vets, nurses,shopkeepers,musicians...... Nothing

Let them think money grows on trees til they get to secondary school, then hit them with it?^

Im puzzled at your reply tbh, Im not sure how from me saying i dont agree with the british army attending careers events aimed at 13-14 yr olds you would think i think we should let them think 'money grows on trees' etc

LtEveDallas I can assure you the 'bad stuff' wasnt covered, my DS actually took quite an interest in what they said, he was told of the opportunities to for example train in an area that would mean a good career after the army ie engineering/medic etc.

Please dont think im being anti army here, i have known and still know quite a few people that have served and i understand why it has been a good move for some of them [particularly those who are from areas of the country with high unemployment where it is a good way to gain valuble work skills for post army life], but it hasnt been good for all of them, I know of people who have suffered for years after they left the army with undiagnosed PTSD leading to alcohol abuse, family breakdown and homelessness which has been very difficult to come back from.

Inability to cope with life after the army is not unheard of is it?

Of course anyone with a TV knows about the loss of many soldiers in the last 9 years, im not from an army area and i know of 1 young man who lost his life in afghanistan [friend of a friend], but my concerns are more about the stuff i mention above, although obviously i would hate to be sat at home worrying about my son getting hurt/killed.

As i said i am not anti army, I dont agree with everything that has happened in the last 9 years, but i do support the young men and women [and the old ones!] that are basically just doing their job.

I just dont want it for my sons and i think its wrong to influence young minds in this way, although yes i accept what a previous poster said about things being explained in more detail once they get further into the recruitment process.

" I know of people who have suffered for years after they left the army with undiagnosed PTSD leading to alcohol abuse, family breakdown and homelessness which has been very difficult to come back from."

I know 2 mothers left with PTSD after particularly horrendous birth experiences. One is now an alcoholic and lost both her children because of it. PTSD is a cruel, evil bastard but is not only an Army issue.

If it was a recent Recruiting Team then they absolutely DID cover all aspects. They have to. It's in their script. If you are certain they didn't then please pm me with the date and location of the event and I will have their balls.

If your son is interested in a military career then that is for him to decide and you to try to accept. I feel I must point out though, I probably would have given up the idea of an Army career for myself had my mother not been so dead set against it.

Amberleaf.......kids need to know they will need to work for their money, hence careers being promoted

Should we only introduce the nice, mummy approved careers then?

I am betting the "gun" was either a picture or a fake one (eg a toy!) .....but if it's killing you, sorry, I mean bugging you, why don't you ask the teacher what they actually brought in? They might even have taken photos to commemorate it. I think (even me being a pacifist and all that!!) the armed forces visiting schools with young children is a good thing, as so many children play with toy soldiers anyway, it teaches them that armies are real, and the idea of defending your country quite a necessary one - but I've only ever heard them talking in very general terms and playing down the violence and bloodshed reality of war. And they generally always emphasise that being armed is not for the purpose of warmongering or attacking anyone but for defence. It is very unlikely that they think their visit is going to help recruit anyone!

If your son is interested in a military career then that is for him to decide and you to try to accept I feel I must point out though, I probably would have given up the idea of an Army career for myself had my mother not been so dead set against it.

I agree, which is why when he was interested in an army career i never once told him not to consider it or tried to put him off, i even helped him research it!

He has since decided its not for him and yes i am relived.

ILoveTIFFANY

^Amberleaf.......kids need to know they will need to work for their money, hence careers being promoted

Should we only introduce the nice, mummy approved careers then?^

Sorry to be rude blunt, but i think you are being rather silly. No where have i said kids dont need to know they will need to work for their money, 'mummy approved careers' again rather silly, my point is [clearly i think] about army careers only, ie a career that has a real risk of personal endangerment being touted to young teens.

My DCs know that they will need to work for a living.

mpsw, I'm not going to get into a discussion about western 'intervention' in civil wars in other parts of the world as I sense that we have very different views.

My specific point is that I can't imagine that a traumatised Somali child (there are some at our school) is going to helped by seeing a solider with a gun being passed around school children as though it's a toy, particularly with no prior warning.

Clearly we do.

But I would invite you to think about - who closed the rape camps in Bosnia? Did they want more or fewer UN soldiers in Srebrenica? Who rescues boys from the LRA? Who can stop the janjaweed? Who stopped the dismemberment squads in Sierra Leone? Which soldiers were actually harming the civilians in Somalia - and who stopped them? How was East Timor stabilised? Were there calls for more, or fewer UN troops in Rwanda?

I'm politely bowing out of this discussion.

This issue raises its head every few months and generally descends into ill-tempered mayhem with polarisation between those who oppose the Forces being involved in schools and those who don't.

So far, we're all being civilised and I hope it remains that way.

Suffice it to say that my son's school took the view that it wouldn't be appropriate for his daddy to come in and talk to his class and I had to explain to him that some people are uncomfortable with soldiers (or service personnel in general) talking about their job in front of children. I accepted the school's position and I did not make a fuss. However, I fully reserve the right to be annoyed that some people seem to think that the Forces are a kind of rapacious organisation out to brainwash the vulnerable. I resent the implication that my husband's job is somehow shameful and disreputable and I fail to see how Service life is any less of a valid career than being a lawyer or bus driver.

I'm outta here too, as the phrase "I'm not going to get into a discussion about" seems to be beyond the understanding of some posters.

I take your point jcscot, about the validity of your husband's career choice. I'm extremely grateful that I don't have to be involved in a service life and hope that my children don't choose to be.

jcscot

Despite my views on recruitment in high schools, i would certainly have no objection as a parent to your DH [or any other parent who is a serving member of any of the forces] coming into to school to discuss what he does in that context.

I also dont see a career in the army as 'shameful and disreputable'

the thing that bothers me is that the army seem to have lots of time and resources for this kind of thing. i wouldnt mind so much if all public sector bodies came into schools and did similar things with equal amounths of free stuff etc. then i would be ok about it

but hey- down here the TA do a stall in town with a big table of guns that kids can play with - i have bigger concerns about that and so does dh (proud ex forces)

duelingfanjo - of course it's not a recruitment drive; it's involving parents from the local barracks in the 'visits' topic at school.

The army does not recruit and is only allowed to go to recruitment fairs.

On the point of the gun, I'd double check with the teacher - seems so far fetched and unlikely that I'm sure it was just the DCs imagination running wild.

They probably answered a question from an interested 5 yr old such as "do you have a gun" and they probably explained how heavy/long it was etc.

thing is sungirltan no matter how much you prevent your children from playing with toy guns, they'll make any inanimate object into one - watch them with a big stick or a pencil. Unless you stop them reading or watching tv, then it's highly likely they'll know early on what a gun is for.

That's not to say I agree with guns - I don't and even at a hen party where we went clay pigeon shooting, I refused to take part as I didn't want to hold a gun.

I too am proud to have a dh who is serving and I would hate for my children to be treated differently by their peers because of other parents putting their anti-forces views upon their children, resulting in my chidlren feeling their father does a job which is shameful.

vintagetea - imaginative play is one thing (children surely play at guns because of cartoons and childrens films/games) - choosing to present a real gun as a toy is something else. real guns are not toys. their only function is to kill or intimidate. presenting a career in the army as an opportunity to play with guns is downright negligent imo. i respect the armed forces just as much as any other civil servants but its certainly not a profession to go into lightly and shouldn't be presented as one.

and that is why we have said that it's highly unlikely that the whole 'gun' thing actually happened sungirltan.

real guns are not toys. their only function is to kill or intimidate

What about sports rifles? Last time I checked there were several Olympic shooting events. Or would people object to an Olympian coming in on the grounds that their job involved guns?

I used to have a gun. It sure as hell wasn't for killing or intimidating people with.

But that's a completely separate issue to the Forces going in to schools (which IMO they should - no point pretending they don't exist).

Rosebud05. - if you are still lurking on this thread, I was wondering why you were attempting to stop another poster disagreeing with you? I don't think the poster misunderstood you or was trying to draw you into discussion. And it seems fair enough that if you leave a specific example to further your point of view, then it is open to response.

nope I ahve no problem with it and army was there at ds2 school recentley when they was talking about careers .( he is 14) There is far more to the army than what people presume.Have people ever looked at all the options there is when you are in the army .

Oh and ds certainly know what it entails ,the other side to it .Think most 13/14 year olds would .Even my 8 year old has a fair idea of it .But on the other hand they also know it is not all about guns and bombs .

Should have mentioned above: DD's school had an Army visitor to KS1 (they've also had police, fire service and a parent who is a doctor). From the pix, it seems to have been a youngish Cavalry officer. Definitely no weapons.

Rosebud you would think that the head teacher in your school would know the demographic make up of the school and realise that an army presence may upset some of your refugees. If not then I would move schools as the head obviously isn't getting to know their students very well. My DS had a friend once whose mother was held up at gun point in an armed bank raid, whenever he cam over to play I had to go pick him up and take him back as she couldn't go past the armed guard on the gate to get to our house, she had suffered PTSD from the incident. That was fine with me I understood her reasons but she didn't mind her son coming past the soldier with the gun on the gate. If a gun (highly unlikely) was involved in this school show and tell then a note should have been sent home to parents, just so any with objections could have their children in another room or kept at home. I am proud of my DH who serves but understand it is not something anyone would want as a career for their DS/DD as going to war is not an experience anyone should have to go through. My DCs will and can choose to do whatever career they wish and if they join any armed service I will be proud of them, but as a mother I would worry terribly and do hope they would not choose this career, it is not as safe a choice as it was when my ancient soldier joined up and we never went to war

Not everybody joins the forces to be an infantry soldier and whilst they are all combat trained to some degree, for some, such as nurses, cartographers, cooks, etc, they don't all experience the kind of warfare you're describing.