Do you really understand the admissions system?

[Rosebud05]

Asking because I know so many people this year locally who are in a dire school situation. As in a lot of places, some cut-off distances for our local schools changed dramatically this year, partly siblings but partly because there just seem to be more kids.

So I know quite a handful of people who only put 1 or 2 popular schools down as preferences (sometimes without having actually visited them!), which were oversubscribed and hence have been allocated somewhere they definitely don't want miles away. 2 people have turned down these offers on bad advice, and now have no school place.

It's not that there aren't enough school places in our part of London (I know this is the place in some), more that so many parents dismiss without even going to look some schools that are perfectly adequate but just not as popular.

A local children's centre did workshops for their parents and every single one of them was allocated a local school, maybe not their first choice but nonetheless a decent local school.

This made me think that more nurseries etc should do workshops and even the English-as-first-language, know-the-system cohort of parents don't seem to understand what is actually a very complicated, anti-intuitive system.

lost last bit...

...own other than where their house is.

Yes, I do, because I've been a school governor and member of the appeals pool for so long.

The reason I bang on so much about school appeals here is because it's been a real eye-opener to discover how many people don't understand either the admissions or appeals processes and (as BetsyBoop says) how many urban myths there are. Some of the advice doled out on MN on the lines of "turn on the waterworks and then they'll feel sorry for you and allow your appeal" is also very unhelpful because it raises false hopes.

I wonder whether we should ask MN Towers to revamp the page on admission appeals advice, to include Betsy's checklist on admissions and some of the more recent stuff from the various appeals threads?

That might be helpful, and I would also add that the number of people who do not contact schools or use the visit to actually ask about admissions is quite shocking-most schools have maps, some idea of siblings etc. that they will share, and a simple phonecall or e-mail will often show what is plausible. the number of people I've shown round at lunchtimes who have never asked about whether space is likely to be available is rather shocking...

But, in addition to showing how it works, Mumsnet could perhaps also used some of its perceived campaigning might to do something about the system itself? Some of the problems-simple lack of places are shocking-but there are other structural flaws-from misinformation given by heads and staff (in particular very loose use of terminology such as waiting lists, appeals rounds, to rather more clandestine means of encouraging or putting off the right sort of applicants) to deep social inequalities enshrined in the admissions criteria themselves. There is a natural risk that so much attention is naturally paid to working the system satisfactorily that all the criticisms which are general get made specific to an individual appeals case. There is a broader malady, and it isn't just because of playground myths.

Quite, Adela. Perhaps MN might engage with the consultation on the new admissions code?

It bothers me too that the DirectGov page on school appeals sends people over to MN. That seems problematic in all sorts of ways and I wonder whether MNHQ is even aware of it.

Perhaps even more importantly, on reflection, is how damn difficult it is to actually implement Rosebud's checklist.

In our case we got a booklet form the LA, with schools listed but no maps or contact details. We spent two evenings googling and using other information to actually get those details. We then rang over thirty schools we could actually get to, a process of chasing which took many days and where some would not divulge information on the phone. Eventually we visited 16 schools over two weeks, this produced 11 that still looked possible, and in some cases we had to return as the school had initially only been seen by one of us. We took huge amounts of time off work, struggled to arrange childcare for our youngest, and spent work time chasing. And we had more information than most to start with because both of us work in schools. And as for explaining the system, that too involved chasing the LA, hanging on hold for ever, since heads gave contradictory advice. And all that could have been avoided if the LA had a simple map-contact database publically accessible, and if all schools in an area had arranged appointments in blocks (open days) that coincided, so you could see all schools in an area on one day, and if everyone said the same thing.

I think what I'm trying to say is that 'ignorance' or trusting Ofsted or gossip is not simply a matter of will for many, but of necessity. If you haven't got to visit your eventual third preference yet, but know your neighbours go there and it's OK, it is silly but perhaps necessary that you simply take a risk.

Yes, I agree with all of that (to varying degrees).

I agree that it can be harder in some LEAs than others to get reliable information. Perhaps the DfE should do more to encourage/cajole LEAs into improving their online information and disseminating information through preschools, health visitors, libraries or whatever other local channels there are and (with LEAs) do more to stop schools giving out misinformation. The workshops which Rosebud mentions sound like an excellent idea which ought to be taken up more widely.

Even so, I do still see instances of (for example) parents trying to hold a gun to an LEA's head by saying "this school and no other". That isn't necessarily about ignorance (enforced or chosen) but, sometimes, about an unwillingness to accept that a system based on parental preference in which many schools are massively oversubscribed isn't guaranteed to give you your first preference.

We had great info from the LEA giving distances of last child into school for last 2 years but that didnt even help.... would have easily got into 2 out of 3 last year and thought we would have a chance at 3rd as they built a new school nearby but no.... despite being 200m from 1st and all 3 less than 800m we got none of them (even my so called safe choice!).

What has amazed me is the shockingly bad info about the appeals process, lack of choice advisors and general inability to provide clear and useable info from the LEA. i am in the fortunate position I can use the internet to research stuff myself but what about families that cant... they dont stand a chance!