Please help - statement of case received for Y3 place appeal

[oneofthosedays]

Points for appeal that we included are listed on this thread

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/primary/1205609-Can-anyone-comment-on-my-points-for-appeal-for-a-Y3-place

We expanded on each point and also added another (rather irrelevant) point that I attended the same primary as a child and know what it's like and why it would be advantageous for DD to attend there.

The statement of case arrived today and I would be grateful for anything I can say back to these reasons in the appeal, I am not good with stuff like this.

They list the no of children at the school and the capacity, admission number for each year is 60, so;

Reception 60
Y1 60
Y2 60
Y3 60
Y4 61
Y5 59
Y6 59

Total 419 and total capacity for school is 420

They state Jrs have no spare rooms to accomodate extra classes and that after a recent suitability assessment the following issues have been highlighted;

4 KS1 classrooms undersized
ICT suite undersized
Resource areas undersized
Shorfall of reception classroom
Shortfall of KS2 classroom
3 KS2 classrooms undersized

Says school is operating over and above capacity and experiencing overcrowding probs.

Following points are also given;

Overcrowding at the school in both year concerned and future years, which causes stress for both pupils and staff. There is no space available for extra class.

Larger class sizes, thus reducing the amount of time teachers are able to spend with individual pupils. This has significant effect on the effectiveness of children's education.

Increased practical demands on the school i.e additional desks and chairs

The admission of even one more child into the year group will affect the way the classes operate. Additional sets of materials would have to be prepared, along with extra time for reading and marking children's work.

Now, aside from feeling really guilty about all this lack of space argument they are using, what can I say against this to try and win the appeal? Any advice will be gratefully recieved. I don't know if I'm a clever enough speaker to make my case on appeal day, I just go to pieces and don't know anyone who could come with me a do a better job of it either!!

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/primary/1205609-Can-anyone-comment-on-my-points-for-appeal-for-a-Y3-place

This is a fairly standard case from the LA.

It is a little contradictory to say the school has 419 pupils against a capacity of 420 and then say that it is operating over and above capacity. If the capacity is 420 it is NOT over its official capacity.

Have they given the sizes of the classrooms? If they want to claim they are undersized they should have done so otherwise the panel have no way of telling how undersized they are. A lot of schools would say they need bigger classrooms but that isn't the same as them being officially too small for the number of pupils.

The stuff about no space available for an extra class is irrelevant. One more child is not going to require an extra class.

The reduced time with pupils, need to prepare additional materials and more time spent reading and marking work is really weak. A lot of schools operate with more than 30 children per class in Y3 or later. I'm sure the teachers at this school can cope.

They have 61 children in Y4. Ask about that. Can they point out ways in which the one additional pupil has caused serious problems. The chances are they can't.

No sizes stated for 'undersized' classrooms/teaching areas. I know that the school has been extended since I attended (20yrs ago!) but has always operated with the same amount of pupils and afaik has always had 'mobile' classrooms for years 5 and 6).

I'm not sure who does these suitability assessments, is this likely to be 'in house' or does an external person do them?

The extra pupil admitted in Y4 was on appeal so I'll definately ask what impact this extra pupil has had.

Thanks for advice so far, very helpful!

Hi can i just ask how you found out about the number of children in each class over the year groups? im trying to find similar information and the lea are of no help!!

As PRH says this is exactly the kind of case that I would expect to see, in fact i have seen two very similar today at appeals.

The undersized classrooms are almost a guarantee as the DfE increased the expected size of school classrooms about 5 years ago and as these are almost for sure from what you have said older, then they will be smaller than ideal. Under the old rules a classroom had to be 48 sqmetres to hold 30 pupils, now it is 56.

You should ask when the 61st pupil was admitted and how. They will probably say at appeal and quite possibly at year reception, so they have managed so far and therefore can have 1 extra in year 3.

You could also ask what the educational standards are like. Hopefully they are good and this can then be turned around as well the educational standards are good so there is no evidence to suggest one more would be a problem.

The suitability tests are usually carried out by the building people within the LA to an agreed national schedule.

The 61st pupil in Y4 was admitted on appeal in Y3 in December 2010.

The school is ofsted rated 1/outstanding, so managing very well considering all these barriers they mention.

Marysgarden - No of pupils in each year was in the statement of case but you school places team should be able to give you this info.

Do you think the chances of success are reasonable?

Shame that the pupil has only just been admitted because you can't really say that they can cope with an extra one, based on 5 months at the school.

If you are going to win I suspect it will be on the strength of your personal case rather than convincing the panel that the school can take an extra one.