I am at a loss how to help Yr5 DD with her maths homework

[VivaLeBeaver]

Please help.

She says that she didn't understand it at all when they did it in class and was taken out the class as she was crying so much......

She has to multiply the following numbers by 5.5

7.9
3.4
1.2
5.5

Obviously no calculator allowed.

I would not expect a yr 5 to do long multiplication with decimals, that is yr 7 work imo and certainly not grid method
I think the angle to take is to times by ten by moving the decimal point and then halve (can she use bus stop method for dividing by 2?) as it is then short division which is much 'easier'

So 79 divided by 2 would be
2 into 7 is 3 and carry the 1
2 into 19 is 9, carry the 1
2 into 10 (using the zero after the decimal point) is 5,
answer is 39.5

The other method I would use is to multiply ignoring the decimals (so 79 x 5) and then you put the decimal point back in. The answer will always have the same amount of numbers after the decimal point than the question. So 7.9 x 5 has one number after a decimal point (the .5) so the answer (395) would have one number after the decimal point (giving 39.5)

That way is veyr hard though as it is just a rule to follow, very little understanding. I would try the x10 and divide by 2 method as it is a good trick to know for x5 anyway but if she really can't then send her in with a note explaining that she found it very difficult.

xposts badly there!

I agree that if she is finding it hard it is better not to do it and have the teacher see she is aiming too high ratehr than have her do it and the teacher thinking all is fine.

I would be teaching this to Yr 7, possibly yr 8. Not a yr 5 poor thing. x 10 would be fair enough, but not the extra step.

I would actually leave it, and go in and see the teacher. She didn't get it in class and was upset-this wasn't sorted out and she was just given the homework.
It is actually very difficult for year 5 -is she is a top maths group?

It presumes a lot of knowledge of place value and, if she doesn't have the knowledge, none of the methods will make sense.

I don't see the sense of sending home work if it was obvious the child failed to understand the lesson.

I think is outrageous that she is being given this work if she struggles with more basic concepts. IMO, homework should always be something that children can do by themselves, following on from work done in class. As you have described, her confidence has been shot to pieces! What's the good of that.

Although the teacher's attitude of 'we've finished division' is wrong, the good thing about the framework for maths does ensure that topics will be revisited over and over again. Hopefully she will find her confidence again with some more appropriate differentiation, and be able to get her head round it next time it crops up.

Have a look at this website, hope it helps...

www.mad4maths.com/parents/

But maybe when she is feeling a bit calmer! Good luck.

Jusr reread OP without DD's climbing all over me and saw it was x 5.5
That is way too high for yr 5. I have yr 8's who woudl struggle with that.

Tbh, DS is 9 and they've been doing multiplications this year- big numbers, too, although whole.

SummerRain's method is the simplest one, really, if you can mutliply, as then you just have to figure out where the decimal point goes and that's very easy.

That is not to say that the teacher shouldn't be aware that your daughter has problems with maths and that she shouldn't have taken more time t support her. Not sure though that this homework is too hard for 10yos, generally speaking

DS (Year 5) says:

'Do the x5 bit first by multiplying by 10 - just move the numbers up one [he means 'up one step in place value'] then halve them.

Then do the 0.5 bit - it's like multiplying by 1 which keeps them the same and then halving.

Then add them together and it's the answer'

He says the hard one is the first because half of 0.9 is 0.45 and 'she won't know that as well as half of 0.5 being 0.25'

Actually, I really think you shouldn't be teaching her any method at home.

She should have been taught a method in class - the only purpose of homework is so the teacher can see that children have understood, and can apply their knowledge themselves. Your DD didn't understand and can't do it.

If none of the children get it, but they go home and their parents teach them how to do it, the teacher isn't going to know where her teaching has failed.

I would be insisting on a meeting with the teacher though to get to the bottom of why your DD is struggling and why she isn't being given appropriate work.

If she doesn't get the place value-she won't get any of the methods. It is no help to her, long term, to get the correct answer and not have a clue why. See the teacher is the only answer.

You have my sympathies. My y5 dd struggles with maths and I was pretty rubbish at it at school too. Last weeks maths homework took dd 5 hours to complete and she still got more than half wrong. I told her to see the teacher with it and the teacher said she'd go over it again in class, but that hasn't happened yet. Doesn't matter how I try and explain it to dd, she just doesn't get it and I end up losing the will to live and exploding with frustration. Not a nice home atmosphere. I think I dread homework more than my kids.

Multiplication with decimals using formal methods is a level 5 concept - in Y5, at level 3, children should be using the grid method to solve two digit by one digit multiplications, and at level 4 a suitable formal method to solve 2 digit x 2 digit questions.

See, I have huge issues with multiplying by 10 and then dividing by 2 being 'easier' than just multiplying by 5 I'm in the middle of a science degree, and have worked plenty of jobs handling money where my mental maths had to be fairly sharp and would never find doing two sums instead of one 'easier'

I could understand if it was to be done mentally that multiplying by 5 and then halving the number and adding the two answers together would be the easiest way but why add the extra step?

I really hope they don't do this stuff over here as I don't think I could cope with the kid's homework if they're expected to do this stuff instead of nice straight forward simple maths

As an aside... we were definitely doing long multiplication and division, fractions, decimals and quite complicated sums in 4th class which is the equivalant of Y5. Granted that was 16 years ago and it's another country but certainly the majority of the class would have handled these types of sums.... mostly due to a confidance with number bonds and times tables. So I don't think 10 is to young, and I'd be quite worried that she can barely add at this age

It does sound like your DD has lost confidence with Maths. I'd secnd the comment that a good sympathetic tutor could really help. ( Of course the school should address it but it doesn't seem like they are really).
I'd forget the homework too and practice multiplication at a level your daughter can cope with eg practising times tables or grid method without decimals.
FWIW, my tutees who find maths hard, find the grid method the easiest long multiplication method to understand and remember and cope with, so if she can "get" this method it will stand her in good stead!

I don't think it's ridiculously hard for a 10 year old, assuming they've learned how to do long multiplication. Not sure what method they'd be expected to use, as a lot seems to have changed in recent years. I was in primary school about 20 years ago, and since then have done A-levels and a Maths degree - but never heard of 'number bonds' and 'grid method' and such things until I came on MN! Still not entirely sure what they are. But I guess it doesn't matter too much which method they use as long as it works!

But...if she's struggling with even basic stuff like adding up, this is obviously far too much, and something has gone very wrong in the teaching process - I would definitely have a word with the teacher and try to figure out where to go from here.

I was a bit at 'we've finished division' - as though they'll never need to use it again!

My DD is in yr5 and did this stuff before Christmas, but she is in a top set working towards level 5a - it doesn't sound like the kind of work that's suitable for an undifferentiated group and I'd be very at a teacher who thought that was OK to set. It's not unusual for a yr 5 to struggle with halving 7. Also, my DD's teacher says he never moves on to the next thing until everyone in the group is comfortable and confident with it - this should apply to all abilities. Sounds like a big fail for your DD's teacher, OP.

Poor thing. Am in a bit of a hurry so haven't read everything yet, and I may be totally barking up the wrong tree - but have you tried the gird method? My DSDs taught me it for long multiplication and I use it in exams!

This is an example for normal multiplication: say 26 x 34
Draw a 2x2 grid and along the top put 20 then 6, down the left side put 30 then 4. So in the top left square you do the product 20x30=600, in the bottom right it's 6x4=24 etc. Fill in all 4 squares and add them.

So for 7.9x5.5 - put 7 then 0.9 along the top, and 5 then 0.5 down the side. Top left square would be 7x5=35, bottom right would be 0.9x0.5=0.45 etc

That's probably no help at all if she's struggling with the decimals, but I thought I'd write it anyway as it's a really useful way of showing WHY you get the answer if that makes sense?

My ds is in year 5 and a level 4a meaning that he's higher than average but no genius. He would cope fine with the sums if there were no decimal points but would probably guess where the decimal point would go. The homework is way too hard for someone who struggles with adding.

Well I told the teacher this morning. Just got back from work and DH SAYS dd has now done the homework, she got some more instruction at school. So thats great.

DH she had to split the sum into quarters. and do each sum then add them all up.

That's grid multiplication.

OK, I know how to do that with whole numbers. Will have to work it out for decimal numbers now. God, who knew Yr 5 maths was so hard?

Just seen WeirdAcroynm's post which explains it really well. Thanks.

I'll as my dds (y5 and y8) if they can do this and how they'd do it (tomorrow).
They are reasonable but not brilliant at maths. I know DD1 will not use the grid method, she calls it the "lots of unnecessary extra writing method" and needed a [smoke coming out of ears emoticon] when they were told to use it recently. She refused to use it at primary school, I think she used it for the first two and did the rest the way we were taught.

I'd multiply by 11 and halve the answer or do 79 x 5.5 and divide by 10, although I did A'level maths, I probably haven't done decimals top and bottom formally on paper for 30 years. (We were the first O'level class to be allowed calculators )

You're welcome VLB :) I hope she feels better about it soon - though really it seems like there's no differentiation by the teacher - not good! She shouldn't be getting work she can't do, poor thing.