Appeals, am I reading this wrong?

[chopchopquick]

Ladies

I appreciate you have had a fair share of questions regarding primary appeals but speaking to the LEA is like banging my head against a brick wall and I need your help as I am not sure if I am making sense of all of this. I will try to keep it short but here is the story................

We applied for three schools for DD in January before the deadline. We knew we would be moving at the end of February and selected schools in the new area. Just as an FYI our move was not out of choice, I was made redundant last year, we fell behind with a mortgage and our home was repossessed, we are now facing bankruptcy. I sent the signed tenancy agreement of the new address to the LEA on 04th Feb stating we would be moving on 02 March. The LEA did not start the allocation process until 11th Feb, after we had sent in proof of the new address but we were advised that the 02 March move date would be 5 days too late to be considered at the new address. Seemed crazy as we had already proved our moved.

We then didn't get allocated any of out three choices and got allocated a school in the old area 15 miles away. We are on waiting lists at position 7,4 and 19 for the three nearest schools. We have been told to consider other schools but the schools in the local area but there is only one other school that is a viable option (although children behind in maths) is still over a mile away which is just about walking distance with a 4year old and 2year old so we are now reapplying. We have been advised that there is only one place at this school and they know of other parents applying so we may not get it anyway and still need to look at other schools but the only other schools that have places are too far for DH to travel as he does not drive (medical grounds), I have managed to get a new job but I am out of the house 14hrs a day. The next nearest school is a 30 minute bus journey away, not allowing for traffic. The other school is still a train ride away, faith school with waiting list. DS is due to start nursery in September and so DH potentially could have to do this bus journey 6 times a day as DS will be doing half days, that or we get a nursery closer to home but then he will always be at least 30mins late for a three hour session. I understand that this won't really be taken into account as nursery is not compulsory. Not only this, given our financial situation we could not afford public transport, it is a luxury, we literally have to account and budget for every penny and we need a school that is walking distance.

Therefore, I honestly feel that the three schools we are wait listed for and the other school that is over a mile away are our only real options so I really feel I am stuck in limbo. The LEA said we don't qualify for school transport as we are not on benefits.

We are appealing as a last hope of being able to get a reasonable/realistic school place for DD but the class size limit rule makes things very difficult but I have to try for DD as I am honestly not sure what alternative we have. I have been reading the Government Schools Admissions Codes 2010 which I found on the Department for Education website. I have found something that I think maybe applicable to our situation but I have got myself into such a panic over the whole situation that I am not sure if I am understanding it correctly. The section says:

2.63 The class size legislation makes allowance for the entry of an additional child in very limited circumstances where not to admit the child would be prejudicial to his or her interests (?excepted pupils?). However, every effort must be made to keep over large classes to a minimum. These circumstances are where:

b) children move into the area outside the normal admissions round for whom there is no other available school within reasonable distance (admission authorities must check with local authorities before determining that a child falls into this category);

Is this saying that when people move into the area and there are no schools available then the school must take on an extra pupil or is it saying the opposite and that the maximum class size rule still applies even if there are no other school places available?

If it is saying the former does this apply to our situation or am I just clutching at straws?

Thank you for following, I would really appreciate any feedback.

Unbelievable!!!

I phoned the LA and was actually very cool and calm with them and said that I was not comfortable with the idea of DD not having a place at all but was happy to surrender the place if we were offered a place at one of our preferences. Responce " We cant do that but we will offer her a place at the next round of continuing interest sometime in June". I repeated that I was not happy with that set up and then pointed out that it was illegal to withdraw an offer, the lady did flap a bit then said that she would re-instate the offer of the original school 15 miles away but added it will then make it even harder for us to get a place at any local school!!!!! How cheeky!!!!

To be honest I expected this may happen so now I am just hoping that the Appeals panel take a different view.

I wonder if they now have to withdraw the offer of the place for the child who had been offered DD's place. This puts LA in a spot but, I do feel a bit guilty for the other child and family.

There is absolutely no way that having the place at a school 15 miles away should have any effect whatsoever on your chances of getting a place at a local school. Sounds to me like she knows they've messed up and is trying to find a way out by putting pressure on you. Do tell the appeal panel about this conversation.

incompetence rules A OK is obviously the LA's motto.
Would you like to point out to the LA that the rules around waiting lists say that as a place becomes available it should be filled by the person at the top of the waiting list at that time, not when it suits the LA. (para 3.20)
Given the level of incompetence being shown, I would strongly suggest that you ask in writing for the LA to confirm in writing when the new address was put on record, that the LA has you down on the waiting lists for your preferred schools, when you went on these lists and where you currently stand on the waiting lists for these schools. I would not be overly surprised, based on what has happened so far, if you get back a reply that gives you more reason for concern.

Please also keep detailed records of these conversations and confirm them in writing as it all adds to the "file"

Admission - I have asked for the details as you sugguested but I have not had anything back yet.

Have you submitted your request in writing? If not, I would do so. An email will do. If they fail to come up with this information before the appeal hearing I would tell the panel.

Hi PRH Yes, I emailed the LA. Do you think I should chase or just leave it?

Make sure you keep the email and take it along to the appeal if they haven't come up with the information.

I would chase them. Failing to answer your questions would be incompetent but, given what has happened so far, I suspect the answers may reveal even more incompetence.

Today in the post I received two In-Year Admission Appeal forms

Winding back to a question you asked yesterday, if they did offer the place to someone else they probably can't legally withdraw the offer. The same rules apply even if this offer takes them over the infant class size limit.

I'm surprised to find they have different forms for In Year Admission Appeals. I can't think of any particular reason for that but it is up to them. However, it is good to see that they are consistent in their level of incompetence!

Admission - I have pm you.

I have done some research into the maximum admission distance for the schools we have applied for and it appears that whilst they are the nearest three schools to our address according to the maximum distances we would not have been allocated a place anyway. I realise that the home to school distance can be affected by sibling or medical rules but even so it seems that we would have fallen into a black hole for an address as the three nearest schools have such small catchment areas, seems absurd but I guess that?s just the way it works sometimes.

Would this have a bearing on the appeal?

At times I feel optimistic about the appeal and at other times I am seriously concerned that we will not be successful but worried that we really do not have any sensible/realistic options and will end up sending DD to the school that has been allocated 15miles away. The annoying thing about this is we would not have applied to that school even if we had of still been living there.

Gosh I'm back again. Other question is it correct that I can only go on waiting lists for three schools? This doesn't seem right as surely the more waiting lists we can go on the better?

Oh I never ever thought getting my DC into a local school could be so hard and complicated. It just does not seem fair :(

Strictly speaking it will have a bearing in that your appeal should only succeed if your daughter would have been admitted if the LA had acted reasonably. However, the LA has been so incompetent that I think there is a decent chance an appeal panel will decide to admit anyway.

I am of the view that you can go on as many waiting lists as you want. That view is shared by the other admissions experts here. However, a number of LAs are only allowing parents to place their children on a limited number of waiting lists. Another MNer has submitted a case to the Schools Adjudicator which should result in a definitive ruling on this question.

Because every year is different the reality is that there can be gaps which if you live in you will not get a place allocated at any local school. The question is what the LA can do about it if it is just one of those years and the honest answer is not that much. In theory they could put on a bulge class if they have a school that can cope with it but not much else.
However there does come a point, if it is happening on a regular basis, that the LA should be held accountable for doing something about it.
Admission panels have no jurisdiction over this, as long as the LA allocate a school, which they have, they have carried out their statutory duties, the fact that it is not local is not relevant. So it really has no bearing on the appeal in theory.
In practice I would be tempted to submit the data beforehand so that the LA see it. That will allow you the opportunity to ask the question about whether the LA know they have a blackhole for admissions in the area and to ask how often it occurs. No matter the answer it can only serve to make the LA look as incompetent as they seem to be and push the panel to thinking this is a case where we have to find in the appealants favour.

Thank you ............ Again

The LA is aware there is a problem and one which will get worse next year as there will be short of 56 reception places. In fact one of the schools we applied for had an expansion proposal as it was identified as being in an area that is short of school places but the application was rejected which again i am guessing does not act in our favour. For next year they are adding a bulge (temporary) class to another school so that it can take an extra 30 children making it a three form entry but this is not one of our preferences ideally as it is over two miles away. This would still be better than 15 miles away but there is currently a waiting list for that school which we can't join, according to LA, as we are already on three waiting lists. Would be interesting to know the outcome of the case regarding waiting lists.

I know I can only give it a best shot but it is the waiting and not knowing that I am finding hard. We still don't even have an appeal date. Wouldn't surprise me if the LA have forgotten to send it out or even sent it to our old address [Hmm]

Part of me hopes they have sent it to your old address so you can take it to the hearing as more evidence of incompetence!

Do you know why the proposal to expand was rejected?

Hi Prh

It was rejected as the grounds of the existing school are deemed to be too small and the restrictions on building a class room block due to listed buildings in the area I think, I understand that there was considerable pressure from parents against the expansion.

Interestingly enough although I do not think it means anything to us other than highlighting the problem but one of the other schools we applied for also had an expansion proposal but that was rejected as well. The local residents were concerned about the loss of some greenland and the proposed expansion would have only taken on an extra 15 children so wasn't worthwhile.

There was a third proposal for a new school in the area but instead the County Council granted permission for a supermarket!!! We already have two large supermarkets in the area

I actually mis-read the figures, this year the LA are short of 11 school places and next year short of 52 (not 56) places which to me seems a huge shortage when you consider a two form entry is normally 60 children. This number actually fills me with dread as my DS is due to start reception next year and knowing how horrible this process has been so far for my DD and its not over yet. The fact that they are short of spaces in the area probably explains why the LA were so reluctant to accept our change of address, although our new address is under the same LA the areas within the LA are divided up and our old address comes under a different area. This probably is the reason that the LA appear to be so incompetent as they are struggling to get cope with everything.

The LA have also cut their school transport budget by £5-6million so if they are short of all these places presumably the children will need to go to other schools out of the area. In my mind this doesn't go together as surely the lack of spaces would mean the transport budget would go up.

I would say that if I had of known all this it would have made me think twice about moving into the area but as I mentioned in my very first post this move was one which we had very little choice about and was very much guided by the housing that was available and how affordable it was.

Yesterday I telephoned the Nursery that DD is currently at to see if they have places for September and at the moment they do, of course this may change before then but at least it is a plan Z should we have nothing sorted come September.

Many LAs were offering free transport to a lot of pupils who did not have a legal entitlement. Nothing wrong with that - an LA is perfectly entitled to offer services over and above the legal minimum. However, many of them are now cutting back to the minimum in order to save money. If your LA is one of them it could well be that the savings from reducing entitlement and finding cheaper providers outweigh the costs from children having to travel further. The good news is that they cannot deny free transport to a child who is legally entitled just because they've run out of budget.

I bet that the shortage of 52 turns out to be an underestimate. One of the problems for LAs is that planning Reception places is difficult because they don't have an accurate picture of the number of children in their area, nor do they know how many of them will go private or home educate. So they may well find that they are shorter of places next year than they expect. Even on their estimate they are going to have to create two new forms somehow.

None of this justifies the way they have treated you.

Just going back to the waiting list issue. When I asked about going on more than three waiting lists which I think is reasonable to maximise our chance of getting a local school place, the LA weren't having any of it but I understand from you guru's this is not the case and we should be allowed to go on more. I would like to speak to the LA again about going on more waiting lists but is there anything I can use to highlight that we should be able to go on more waiting lists as I envisage that once again the LA are not going to be too cooperative.

Secondly, the school transport issue, what exactly is meant by Transport? Is it costs covered for public transport, school bus or taxi? I have been doing a further school search and I have found a village school that is over three miles away but it is not very well serviced by public transport, I don't even know if they have spaces but would a taxi be provided bearing in mind the difficulty with public transport? Also, I am assuming DH would go in the taxi with DD as I wouldn't want her to go unaccompanied and also I think it is important from a social perspective that DH gets to meet other parents and the children DD will be with, would they expect DH to make his own way back?

THANK YOU .......again.

I'm afraid there is nothing that definitively says you can go on more waiting lists. That is my reading of the Admissions Code but it is clear that a number of LAs don't agree. Hopefully we will soon get a determination from the Schools Adjudicator and we will then know where we stand.

It is up to the LA how they meet the requirement to provide transport. For primary age children it is often a taxi but there is no guarantee. They are only required to provide transport for your daughter. They don't have to allow you or your husband to accompany her. If they do allow one of you to accompany your daughter you will almost certainly be on your own when it comes to getting back.

Thanks prh

So in other words I really need to win the appeal to stand any chance of getting a reasonable school place for DD.

PRH

I have sent you a PM, if you mind looking over our appeal statement.

Thanks

Seen it. I'll get back to you this evening.

Well the appeal was today. Glad it is over and done (possibly two more to go). I rather got the feeling that it was all just a formality and already knew we had very little chance of getting the appeal upheld. That said i feel the panel did have an understanding of our position and the point we were trying to get across. At one point the panel picked up on something that we did not know about and that was our address should have been changed at an earlier stage than it was. At one point it was like watching a game of tennis as my head kept moving from one side of the room to the other as the panel were almost trying to argue the toss over when the address got changed. However, it sort of comes round to the same thing, it is unlikely we would have got one of our preferences at that stage but would have got a local school. Although I don't think the panel were that impressed with the LA whether this was enough to win an ics appeal I don't know. The panel acted professionally and did not give us any indication either way so based on the actual appeal today I have no idea of how this could turn out but as I said knowing the fact the ics appeals are so difficult I am preparing myself for a NO.

We should find out in 7-10 days.