class size question please?

[Peachy]

Hi

We've been invited to a school meeting alongside all other year 5 parents to discuss making the three existent classes into 2; the classes are voer 20 each so class size will clearly be an issue. It's not seemingly up for debate- teachers have been let go and retirees not replaced.

Now, ds2 is in year 5 and has struggled academically: school say he hs dyspraxia 9it's obvious tbh) and he has an IEP but nobody acceptting referrals locallya tm due to long term sickness, he also has other issues that mean school is somewhat of a break for him (to be exact, 3 ASD siblings).

He has also been subjected amssively to bullying and the school have always sorted it but he lost all his friends making teh transition from infants to juniors due to how the classes were drawn up: doing that again will knock him hugely I think. he's not Mr Academic, that I know, but can;t see how a class size change at this stage ill help in any way.

We are in Wales if that matters?

Apaprently tehre is a chance to chat to governors after the meeting but I cannot attend and Dh will have our toddler so is unlikely to be able to stick around, toddler has probably AS and doesn't do crowds.

TIA

I would go to the meeting, but also arrange another special meeting with Head and SENCO to discuss how this will affect your DS specifically given his dyspraxia and history of bullying.

Could you find someone who could have your toddler for a few hours (not easy I know if he has ASD) so your DH could stick around a bit longer after the main meeting.

It may be that the school just doesn't have enough funds to do anything differently, but it might be possible to keep the year 5 classes down to 30 if the year 4 or 6 classes are under 30. Could they put some children in a split year 4/5 or year 5/6 class as well as having 2 year 5 classes?

None of this helps your ds specifically with friendship issues but I think the main thing ther eis to have a separate meeting to discuss this!

I know a childminder who migt be able to help although DH is of the opinion that if the school calls meetings like this with one week's notice theyc an put up with teh ASD toddler in the back!

I think a chat with head might be in order tbh. It's the current year 5 classes that will be reduced to two gping into year 6; I hazard a guess that will make classes of about 35.

Unfortunately, the LEA decide how much funding to give to schools for paying staff determined on the number of pupils in the school.
Therefore if they are paying 3 Yr 5 staff, when as far as the LEA are concerned only need to pay 2 to cover the number of children then the LEA will not pay for the 3rd member of staff.
Although it will appear that in this case there are too many children for 2 members of staff, the LEA look at the number of children in the junior section of the school as a whole, so it may be that some yr5 children will end up in split year classes with yr4 children, to make up numbers in the yr4 classes.
Hope that makes sense, I am governor in a Church in Wales school and they are always having to look at moving pupils around classes to keep numbers in line with LEA funding :(.
If your DS is on SA or SA+ at present, but hasn't been statemented as school could cope due to smaller than average class sizes (guessing here) could they apply for a statement for him for a TA?
Definitely try and attend the meeting - better to hear exactly what is happening, rather than Chinese whispers the next day in the school yard.

So does the 30 class size thing no longer stand then?

Mixed classes I would be fine with; this is cutting a class in half and putting half each way into the other ones. I suspect it is ds2's as they have had 5 teachers so far this year (we had apologies sent to all parents from Head) and she's the only teadcher whoe aprent's evening is scheduled pre meeeting presumably to protect from angry parents.

Don;t think statementing will apply to ds; other two have statements but they keep trying to take him off SA as it is, and won't refer him for help. It's a good, good school- allied to church in Wales- but not for SN.

If he was not in year 5 i'd shift him sharpish.

the 30 class limit is only for infant classes ( Year 2 and below). Junior classes can legally be over 30 children as long as the classrooms meet the size requirements to take that number of children.

Class size of 30 is only applicable to infants I'm afraid, in england at least.

Bugger, although OFTED commented classes were too small and when i go in to read I have to sit in a corridor due to lack of space

This way they can free up a room, right?

DS2 is stuffed isn't he? We only told him saturday his youngest sib hs almost certainly got ASD, he's already in a state

Bugger.

A year later and I could talk to DH about transferring him to the primary where ds3 goes to SNU but we can't afford the petrol atm.

saying that I would lay money there are parents who will fight for their kids not to be in my kid's class so that might help.

From DFE Assessing Net Capacity of Schools document 2002

The net capacity method uses a higher standard area per pupil than in the past. In primary
schools, the minimum area for a classbase for 30 pupils is 49m2, but this must be supported by
at least a further 14m2 of ancillary area, not including the hall. Part of this further area could be
in non-teaching spaces such as stores, but it will predominantly be for teaching: either within
the overall area of the classroom or in shared teaching areas1.

see media.education.gov.uk/assets/files/pdf/s/assessing%20the%20net%20capacity%20of%20schools.pdf for more details

I don't know whether you'd have a case about class size based on the physical capacity of the classrooms?

There's no way we hit that anyhow: there's hall, dining room (mentioned as appalling by ofsted, even have to elave doors open in winter to accomodate chidlren) and a storerrom used as a TA base. otherwise, corridors.

(No chance of expansion; school hundrefds of years old)

So - you may have an argument that the classrooms do not have a physical capacity to take class sizes of 30+?

Tbh I think this will be a common theme with the cuts we are facing. When I was at juniors (30 years ago!) our classes were all 34 with no TA and I think this is what we will go back to. It is really hard when it is your child though!

I think if it was a different child I would be annoyed but cope IYSWIM

I have not fought for further help for ds2 on the understanding that his needs were met anyway, and they by nd alrge have been

He won't concentrate or cope in a class that size. I work in SN (albeit unpaid) and it's going to collapse badly for him.

it's a relatively well off school as well. Ther must be options? I'd glady do a day's TA help for free (MA in Autism close to completion, not entirely unskilled) but they don't really want help

Whether you like it or not the reality is that the school does not have the funding for 3 classes. Obviously if it 60 in the year group it is easy to split them into two classes of 30 but if there are more than 60 then you will progessively get more and more in each class. So how many exactly have you got in the year group?
The question I would ask is what is the admission number for the school? Is it 90 and you simply do not have the numbers or is it something stupid like 65.
The school does not have to actually consult parents on doing this but it is obviously better that they do from a PR point of view, so my inclination is to say that unless the actual classes are going to have 35 or more in you will not get them to change their minds. What i would suggest you need to do is to sit down with the Head and talk specifically about your son and how their SEN is going to be accomodated in this new set up.

Admision unless he is diagnosed they refuse

they wopn;t refer for diagnosis

Now, I COULD take that on as a fight but bear in mind I also have three autistic children one of whom has just entered diagnostic process, one transferring to an SNU and one already at one

it's not a fight I can take on.

I may well home ed.

Does that mean all your DC have AS, Peachy? (I know AS can have its plus sides, but what rotten luck...)
I'd be surprised if they didn't try to mix up year groups to keep class sizes down, that's what DC school has done. So if they mixed next y6 with y5 (in Wales you don't have SATs, right? so not such a focused curricula for y6) that could keep class sizes down to closer to 30, maybe.

Ragged no; ds1 has AS, ds2 school say dyspraxia definitely ?adhd, ds3 autism, ds4 just been referred on HVs demands but going by DSM criteria AS.

I'd be all for a mixed year group as I think ds2's self esteem is further knocked by always being bottom of the group. The trouble is, he lives in ds1;s shadow: ds1 has real issues, pretty much runs the whole school by the emans of fear. So ds2 is a soft target isn;t he? And whilst ds1 goes to specialist palcement in september, ds2 will be left to fend for himself with 3 years worth of very angry children: I didn;t really want him to lose the structure he has IYSWIM. They;ve cut sibling support here so he's a little bit high and dry. Am considering setting something up for siblings but want to think very hard first as I do have a lot on my plate.

If HE seems OTT reaction this is item 981 in things that have annoyed me about the school, Comapratively tehy are a well off school (I volunteer at a far worse off school with a much poorer intake that I prefer, and ds3 attends a base in one). Am going to see if I can arrange for ds4 to attend the next closest school but it may be competitive as it seems everyone is doing the same due to the school being a bit crap which has in turn led to this. It's supposed to be one of the best in Wales as well- ha!

No SATs but still exam week which is pushed as hard tbh.