Kumon - Why would this be necessary for top of the class (and youngest) Y2 child?

[emlu67]

My DD is probably just below average at Maths (which we are addressing) but her best friend is exceptionally bright and despite being the youngest in the class is top for everything.

This child has two older sisters in grammar school and I just wondered why the parents think it is necessary to send her to Kumon Maths every week. What are they learning at school for 6 hours a day? Is this really necessary to get her into grammar school? Personally I would prefer my DD to spend her time enjoying being a child and enjoying other sorts of activities, there is plenty of time for studying later!

Thoughts please...

Indigo, I'm with you. It might not be desirable for all the reasons you say and more, what strikes me is how many believe it isn't possible, full stop.

Indigo - also used the maths example as it's one cited by Rachel at Mumsnet to introduce Matthew Syed. Very interested in this subject, as you can tell :), and very curious about what he says later this week about sports as well as academics.

Not all children are satisfied by the educational attainment standards set by their school - many children are very happy to go beyond them. And it really is the business of no-one but the family concerned whether or not children do extra tuition.

my DS2 (6) always asks me for extra homework, and for extra classes. His brother does Kip McGrath (as he is very much behind, and i tried to eb a treasure-hunt mum, but my DS doesn't fall for that. So we now do homework, proper, and extra kip classes).

DS2 however tells me his teacher doesn't challenge him enough, that he always asks her for extra work and more challenging sums. She gets a bit fed up and just asks him to sit down and keep quiet. He tells me he then "challenges himself" (his words) and thinks up harder sums than the ones she gives.

So children who ask for tutors and extra challenges DO exist. Poor DS2 doesn't get tutoring though, but I have asked his teacher if he can do some extra sums when he has finished his normal stuff. (pushy parent?!). he has complained the teacher doesn't challenge him enough, and I wonder if he's been reading MN

I have had very bright children.
I have one who is not academic. He has LDs.

It was my older ones who were v.bright. I did try extra books and stuff (couldnt afford tutoring) but it just seems like a big old waste of time and they hated it.

With my DS who has LDs I did look into tutoring when he was at mainstream because wasnt learning anything. Soon realised I couldnt afford it and it all seemed about getting kids through tests. I just wanted my boy to learn how to read.

I know it might sound a bit rubbish but I think if you have a clever child - hurray - its enough for them to be clever and interested and do well at school. Why more? They will still go to uni when they are 18 and it all seems to level out there.

But I dont really have any experience of tutoring so feel free to ignore..

Thanks for all your comments. Child in question does do other non-academic activities some of which are crammed in on a Saturday morning. I took her to a party once on a Saturday afternoon where she promptly fell asleep!

Her parents have high expectations so this is probably why they have signed her up Kumon however the child has told me that Kumon is boring so although she is good at maths she is not keen on extra!

I prefer to help my own DD learn in every day situations and conversation as although not the most academic child I do know that she works hard and tries her best which is all I would ever ask of her.

To OP, I spoke to the leader at our Kumon centre recently. Here are some of the less obvious alleged benefits, I was curious as I've seen the advantage it seems to have given children at our school. These might be some of the reasons a family chose it for an already 'bright' child:

Instills good daily habits/self discipline
It is good for nurturing resilience, children see that to struggle is normal. It's perfectly ok for things to be difficult. (Breakdown to breakthrough)
Makes a child more positive & confident
A child learns to aim high
A child learns that consistency is key

We have 30 in our class with an overstretched (some issues with behaviour), under resourced teacher. I can see why people might tutor, turn to Kumon, do 20 minutes a day, anything that might give a little extra help to their child.

"however the child has told me that Kumon is boring so although she is good at maths she is not keen on extra"

That's quite sad. She's at risk of having any enthusiasm for maths chipped away as she will end up believing all maths is boring, not just the Kumon stuff.

There is an interesting and lively article in today's Times by a Washington based ecomomist, suggesting parental efforts do not affect the outcome for children (more on the nature/nurture debate). He comes down firmly on the side of genetics.

I think it is a really interesting issue and after three children and years' teaching/lecturing I agree that Cortina has a strong point (if your children will aquiesce). but I wonder if we are confusing intelligence with performance at all? It seems to me that the "20 mins a day" will improve a child's school performance. This does not necessarily correspond to performance or interest in adulthood - though it might (depending of course on what you consider to be the definition of success for your child) or to intelligence really since I readily agree that many children can be taught well enough to gain high examination grades - hence the fuss about universities having trouble choosing the brightest from results alone.

That said, I think the game up to age 18 can be weighted by having children jump through those hoops. Teachers and communities will ascribe greater ability to our children if they demonstrate competence, some of which might be tutored in. They appear clever, and this in itself has significant consequences at least until late teenagerhood. Most of us would, I'd guess, think that after university entry, our children will be responsible for their own academic and intellectual progress and our influence will be limited or absent, but that we are able to make some difference earlier on.

This doesn't mean that the clever but untutored won't catch up and overtake, but that, according to my observation, parents might be justified in thinking that their efforts make sure their children are able to compete at that level and anyway, for most jobs, the actual level of intelligence necessary often isn't as high as one might think, so then a decent performance is sufficient for entry into many competitive fields (Malcolm Gladwell said an IQ of over 120 is a waste!)

I wonder if or when neuroscience will provide us with more definitive answers to such interesting questions!

I sent my ds for kumon lessons as he was below average at school, once he started his confidence grew in the subject and was able to do mental maths much quicker.

We later withdrew him as we felt our aim was achieved.

I dont understand why people are criticising this other parent who is sending their bright child to kumon, surely that is THEIR business. It might not make sense to you but it does to them, it one to their own, live and let live.

Slipshod, interesting points. I agree with this:

Teachers and communities will ascribe greater ability to our children if they demonstrate competence, some of which might be tutored in. They appear clever, and this in itself has significant consequences at least until late teenagerhood.

If you feel your teacher likes you, you feel like you 'fit', have friends etc, you are likely to learn better and there's more chance of a virtuous circle around study being created as you progress. You are more likely to be happy, and everyone learns better when they are calm, happy and not tense and stressed. Some parents I know have convinced teachers that their child is 'able' - they should be moved up a reading level, etc. Eventually it seems the teacher capitulates and the child moves up a level etc. I've noticed if this doesn't happen your child will often not be at a level that reflects their true ability. There's just too many children and too much going on for it to be a level playing field for all. It's fairly subtle, and probably doesn't make a long term difference but once a child is seen as 'bright' by the school staff this is going to help. Lauren Resnick has written about a child that is treated as more intelligent becoming more so (in this sense) etc.

There's a chap who wrote the Talent Code who talks about Myelin and neural pathways being strengthened via practice etc. Not sure if you are familiar with that? Myelin apparently makes neural connections stronger and our brains work quicker and better when 'deep practice' takes place. Something like that anyway.

Also I've noticed something interesting with the admittedly few exceptionally gifted children I've known over the years. In every case their parents fed their desire for knowledge and so enabled their talent. Family excursions were to science museums and the families weren't habitual TV watchers etc. Often a parent had a passion for science, maths or similar and given their nature they couldn't help but enthuse at meal times etc, this rubbed off in every case. Weekends were purposeful, visiting places of interest, walking, TV limited to good quality age appropriate films etc.

This related video is extremely interesting I find!

I haven't noticed much criticism on this thread - just people saying they would not do it themselves, or that they don't understand why anyone would - that's not really criticism.

'There is an interesting and lively article in today's Times by a Washington based ecomomist, suggesting parental efforts do not affect the outcome for children (more on the nature/nurture debate).'

That's just plain stupid. Why bother sending them to school then? If a teacher can make a difference then so can parents ffs.

Nokissy - I think some feel threatened and slightly guilty that they may be letting their child down by not doing enough 'extra' at home. Some don't believe in anything academic outside of school and/or think that Kumon is a poor method also I guess. Just my thoughts.

Do we value education less in the UK? Other cultures/countries seem very pro extra curricular academics and Kumon too, displaying enviable work ethic and self restraint. The UK education system is now ranked something like 23rd in the world down from 12th position in 2000. It was interesting to see the response the Amy Chua book produced recently and our thoughts about 'Tiger mothers'. (Although some of the methods described in the book were rather more extreme than a bit of Kumon). :).

Starlight, interesting, thanks for posting that link. I like the idea of teachers as mentors.

Slipshod can you copy and paste or post a link?

squidgy I have a 'coaster'.

He is going to coast his way right out of college one of these days.

Cortina thank you and I see what you mean. The tone on here is very critical, I remember once I was discussing kumon with a lady I had just met and the fact that ds had just stated attending, her reply was "but why does he need it, surely that is your job, you are pushing it on someone else" she said in her sanctimonious tone.

It Is my job to ensure ds gets a good education, how he gets it is MY business, that shut her up.

www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/life/article3019166.ece

I can Cortina, but you need a subscription, I think, to access it and I think it's too long to cut and paste.

Both of my 'middle two' children -Y2 and Y3 - are very young in the class (my son is the youngest) but top of the class for literacy and maths. They both have have private tutoring after school twice a week for different reasons.

My son lacks confidence and hates to get things wrong so this gives him a head start, so he doesn't feel anxious when new things come along.

My daughter finds it difficult to concentrate in a busy classroom (both have mild AS) and needs to find the work easy or she will not attempt it.